7 ms·

GNOME has come a long way, but its stubborn insistence on not having a desktop with a real application launcher remains a huge usability misstep. GNOME's market

GNOME has come a long way, but its stubborn insistence on not having a desktop with a real application launcher remains a huge usability misstep. GNOME's marketshare is the desktop, and so the initial value proposition of a hybrid UI seems very much wishful thinking, while the keyboard based workflows it seems to want to enable are better served by tiling WM such as Sway, and do not make sense for the "default" WM that is picked up by casual converts who are used to a point and click system. Overall it's just a confusing mess for new users, which Canonical/System76 rationally get rid of (which is probably a majority of the GNOME user base). So why does GNOME continue down this path. Is it a fear of being "just like everyone else" by using a tried and true dock/application bar? Is it a desire to not be the front running WM and be more "niche" to power users? I still don't really understand their decision making process.

pjmlp 2y ago
Two things that made me switch to XFCE, JavaScript based extensions affecting performance, complete refusal to add back support for Windows shading (roll up).
- panick21_ 2y ago
  That's why System76 is writting extensions in Rust and runs them in seperate processes.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Whatever compiled language, even with my C related rants, I am happier with C written XFCE extensions than the GNOME JavaScript ones. The separate process is an interesting point, back in the day dynamically loading code into the host process was the way to go, due to hardware resources and how demanding would be to use UNIX IPC for everything. Now a couple of years later, with the existing hardware resources, and the ongoing stability and security issues of loading code into process, turns out separate process is a good idea after all.
- pmarreck 2y ago
  which extensions are js-based? there's no gnome extension to do roll-up windows?
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    All of them, since they replaced the C API with the JavaScript based one in GNOME 3.0 "GNOME Shell and extensions are written in GJS, which is JavaScript bindings for GNOME Platform APIs. For an overview of how extensions fit into GNOME Shell and the platform, see the Architecture page." https://gjs.guide/extensions/ https://gjs.guide/extensions/ Roll-up was never an extension on UNIX windows managers, having to install one is a joke on us. As for the GNOME developers stance on that, https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/1028 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/1028 Meanwhile XFCE, KDE, Windowmaker, Afterstep, Enlightment.... do them just fine.
    - ossusermivami 2y ago
      the shade issue seems to be an issue with wayland and whatnot as far i can tell..
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        That is why I wrote "Meanwhile XFCE, KDE, Windowmaker, Afterstep, Enlightment.... do them just fine. " to make the point the others handle it without excuses.
johnny22 2y ago
I would assume that it's because there are more people like me who use gnome. I kept using gnome 3 from gnome 2 because gnome 3 worked the way I was already using gnome 2. I tried using tiling window managers, but they didn't give me the niceties of the out of the box gnome experience. I do have one extension for topicons. (sometimes I use gsconnect, but not recently) I don't need anything else.
stonogo 2y ago
It took me a while to figure out what you mean by "real application launcher" but I think you mean that hitting the top left corner menu (or the Windows key) launches the fullscreen window overview plus launcher and that's not enough for you? I guess the "Dash to Dock" extension is what you're after but I can't say I've ever missed it. I don't really use the keyboard for it, but every time I use a non-GNOME system I badly miss the ability to just click in the corner to manage programs, whether switching between them or launching new ones. If GNOME got rid of this I would probably stop using GNOME.
- whalesalad 2y ago
  the app launcher really only works on a laptop with gestures. pain in the butt with a mouse, especially on a large display.
  - kimixa 2y ago
    On desktop my hands are 99% of the time already in the right position for the keyboard shortcuts. I generally quite like the out-of-the-box gnome3+ experience, it fits my use cases pretty well (when I don't have a highly tweaked custom tiling window manager setup). It's nice to actually get choice, rather than 5 "choices" that are all chasing exactly the same style, if you prefer the XFCE or KDE experience, then that's what XFCE or KDE are for.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      Proper choice would be the ability to customize that kind of thing in the DE. Having to switch the DE completely over one simple thing like this is, frankly, ridiculous. But GNOME explicitly hates customizability.
      - ragnese 2y ago
        > Having to switch the DE completely over one simple thing like this is, frankly, ridiculous. And who is forcing you to switch DEs over one simple thing? The parent comment is merely suggesting that we use the DE that we like the most (or--I'll add--hate the least).
tadfisher 2y ago
> remains a huge usability misstep Evidence? The Gnome project has performed UX studies[0] to validate their design, and has continually made changes in response (some of which I disagree with, FWIW). [0]: https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Studies https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Studies
- hobo_mark 2y ago
  We just deployed RHEL9 and had to quickly revert gnome because users (and me!) had no effing idea how to use it. For instance, no button to minimize and maximize a window, no taskbar to switch between windows, what the actual...
  - _urvc 2y ago
    It took me almost half a year to figure out that Firefox was missing the minimize/maximize button because Gnome by default hides them. And I only figured out after having to install Gnome Tweak tool because I moved to Gnome temporarily...
- blueflow 2y ago
  It is infuriating that they used systematic approaches to UX and still came up with the current thing. I said it before, too many implicit gestures that are not discoverable until you google for it. Last time i tried GNOME was last week and gave up after a day.
  - colanderman 2y ago
    What implicit gestures? Everything in the Gnome desktop you can get to by clicking the "Activities" menu at the top-left: search bar, dock, applications button, minimized windows, and 2nd desktop all then become visible. Granted, the applications button icon is quite nondescript (9 dots). But it's still just 2 clicks of prominent UI elements away. Same # of clicks as Windows (Start -> Program Files) and MacOS (Finder -> Applications).
    - 2y ago
cm_silva 2y ago
I know it's not perfect but I use the 'dash to panel' extension
addicted 2y ago
Gnome is a DE designed to be used by distributions. Gnome doesn’t have an opinion on a desktop application launcher because it expects the distribution to add it. The only distributions which don’t are GnomeOS which is intended for developing Gnome, and Fedora, which is intended to be a bleeding edge distribution to mass release stuff before it’s included in RHEL. Turns out, however, that a lot of people actually like the default Gnome look and so are happy with using Fedora. But in practice this isn’t an issue for anyone because their distribution will come with an application launcher. And even better you can completely change and/or add an application launcher because they are implemented through extensions.
- softirq 2y ago
  Every DE is designed to be used in a distribution. I think what you are trying to say is that GNOME is designed to be "finished" by the distribution, which is a completely made up idea. Show me where GNOME says you need to finish the DE yourself during integration. GNOME is designed as a complete DE, the reason Canonical/System76 change it is because it's poorly designed for new users/casuals, which is their user base.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ragnese 2y ago
  > Gnome is a DE designed to be used by distributions. > > Gnome doesn’t have an opinion on a desktop application launcher because it expects the distribution to add it. I don't think this is true at all. Where have you read this? If GNOME intended for distributions to customize it, I can't imagine why they'd keep harping on about how custom theming is awful. See: https://blogs.gnome.org/alatiera/2021/09/18/the-truth-they-are-not-telling-you-about-themes/ https://blogs.gnome.org/alatiera/2021/09/18/the-truth-they-a..., and https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-at-scale/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-a... I'm honestly surprised they still support adding extensions via extensions.gnome.org.
  - Spivak 2y ago
petepete 2y ago
> So why does GNOME continue down this path. Because it's great and everyone apart from a tiny but incredibly vocal minority get on just fine with it.
- iknowstuff 2y ago
  Yeah! GNOME is wonderful. I can’t with the neckbeards.
  - ragnese 2y ago
    I'm a neckbeard and I vastly prefer GNOME Shell to any other DE (including proprietary ones like on Windows and macOS). I still don't consider myself a "fan" and I have plenty of complaints about it- I just have way more complaints about all the others... :D
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- greyw 2y ago
  GNOME seems to be least buggy DE and gets out of my way when doing things. A nice bonus is that it also looks and feels good. I used to use plasma but it was just too buggy for me. Just today a random user realized that installing a theme from the built-in theme selection thingy deleted all his data... I have some hope for cosmic DE as it seems like they try to emulate GNOME's workflow with some twists.
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    As someone who had only used GNOME or DEs based on / inspired by it for 18 years, I had to switch over to KDE on my work laptop because GNOME was giving me endless trouble with the external monitor for some reason (to the point where I could choose between either ridiculously impractical resolutions or mouse flickering). I'm now actually quite satisfied with KDE (although I continue to use GNOME apps too). I guess every one of these DEs has their own share of bugs.
- 2y ago
olliej 2y ago
Last time I tried gnome it was in an Ubuntu install I think which had a weird launcher that imo didn’t work particularly well. I’m not sure what you are meaning by a launcher here - to me there’s a fairly reasonable ambiguity about what is meant. On windows people still seem to use shortcuts on the desktop as a primary launcher (especially given the current start menu abomination, sheesh talk about destroying one of the most effective bits of UI MS ever produced), on Mac I actually mostly use spotlight (though that usage is subject to the “secret chord” problem), but most normal users use the dock for common apps and the applications folder for everything else. I keep meaning to retry kde at some point but I’m waiting for more asahi work to support my desktop (they are reasonable to focus on the laptops but my laptop is my work machine so less willing to surrender disk space when llvm builds already consume half a TB). It’s weird to me that back when I was a primarily Linux user gnome was The(tm) commercial Linux desktop and kde was the clunky also-ran, I assumed the gnome was destined to win in the long term due to gtk APIs, commercial support, and at the time seemingly more polish and completeness. I guess things can change given a decade or so of development :D
jacooper 2y ago
Because not everyone likes a classic app launcher? I like how reliable gnome's search is, it replaces the start menu. I just click super, see my workspaces, all of my running apps and can just directly start typing and find the app I'm looking for. Why would I ever need a start menu? It's soo good that KDE added something similar recently.
webkike 2y ago
Gnome has a built in extension called “Applications Menu” that is just that. I don’t really use it that much. I find opening search and typing what I want much faster. Or I use the dock
yoyohello13 2y ago
I’m not sure what you mean by application launcher. Is Super not enough? Super, type 2 or 3 letters of the program I want, enter. Works really well for me.
- wwarek 2y ago
  Right? Also much faster than, I guess, scrolling with mouse through some menus
- colanderman 2y ago
  Vocally seconding this. I wanted to not like Gnome (longtime wmi/wmii/i3 user) but its application launcher (and actually everything to do with the super/three-finger swipe/hot corner system) is superb. I'm amazed how equally highly usable it is via keyboard, mouse, and touch.
  - yoyohello13 2y ago
    Yeah, I was a big DWM user for a long time. I finally bit the bullet and gave Gnome a chance on Fedora a few years ago and it has an amazing keyboard workflow out of the box. Plus the extra mouse gesture goodies. People complain a lot about Gnome but if you engage with Gnome on its own terms the workflow is actually fantastic.
- wmf 2y ago
  That's completely undiscoverable.
  - colanderman 2y ago
    Click on "Activities" in the upper-left corner. (One of the few desktop UI elements.) It is exactly the same thing as pushing the Super key. A search bar pops up, start typing to search (EDIT: no 2nd click needed).
    - softirq 2y ago
      Which is terrible UI. Let's force the user to turn a flow they could do at any time by clicking a single button at the bottom of their desktop into a context switch into another window, followed by the same button click. Or know about the Magic Keyboard short cut, then type in multiple characters, then press enter. So in any case we're turning a single input into multiple inputs just to open a commonly used app.
mdasen 2y ago
I've been enjoying Budgie for this reason. It feels like a "normal" desktop experience with a taskbar at the bottom, something like a start-menu with the search functionality we're used to, and without anything really trying to be fancy or transparent. It just feels "regular". The criticism some people have of Budgie is that it feels like a customized version of GNOME rather than its own thing - but that's what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for something to ditch the good parts of GNOME. I'm looking for something that will just give me a regular desktop where things feel like what macOS or Windows have been offering for a couple decades.
- VyseofArcadia 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, why Budgie over XFCE, MATE, or LXDE? All of those are pretty much just a "normal" desktop experience with a taskbar, something like a start menu with search, or anything trying to be fancy or transparent. Nothing against Budgie, I'm just curious what made it stand out for you.
mushufasa 2y ago
Not sure how much this is still true, but as I recall, GNOME used to have a 'start' launcher like Windows, and removed it because of a lawsuit (gates/ballmer era Microsoft). That was the big motivation for gnome 2 to 3, and also why canonical split off unity for a while
ragnese 2y ago
> while the keyboard based workflows it seems to want to enable are better served by tiling WM such as Sway This is where I think your analysis starts to break down. Tiling and keyboard-oriented are almost orthogonal. There's no a priori reason that a tiling WM has to be keyboard-oriented, nor that floating WMs are inherently less accommodating to keyboard-oriented workflows. As an anecdote, way back in my youth, I had all kinds of keyboard shortcuts for resizing and moving windows by different amounts in my Openbox WM setups. Likewise, I really tried to like the popular tiling WMs (i3, xmonad, AwesomeWM), but I eventually realized that I can't literally be focusing on content from multiple windows simultaneously, and it makes way more sense for me to size and position each window so that I can optimize my interactions with that one when I am focusing on it. > do not make sense for the "default" WM that is picked up by casual converts who are used to a point and click system. Overall it's just a confusing mess for new users, which Canonical/System76 rationally get rid of (which is probably a majority of the GNOME user base). Let's be real, though. The year of Linux On The Desktop is not coming--hell, The Desktop is pretty much dying altogether. So, I really don't care if we optimize for the "casual computer user" who just happens to stumble into a chair in front of a Linux desktop, because that person doesn't exist. It may sound selfish, but I rather they optimize for users who already exist. > GNOME has come a long way, but its stubborn insistence on not having a desktop with a real application launcher remains a huge usability misstep. > [...] > So why does GNOME continue down this path. Is it a fear of being "just like everyone else" by using a tried and true dock/application bar? GNOME is actually fairly close to macOS in this regard. Yes, macOS has a dock with an application launcher, but if I didn't already know what the application launcher icon looks like, I'd have no idea how to get to its application launcher: the icon I'm looking at right now on my work Mac is a square icon with a 3x3 grid of colored squares inside it--what the hell does that mean? Is it a color picker app? Some kind of Tetris or Candy Crush game? GNOME's top-left stupid oval button is equally bad, but not worse, than macOS's UX discoverability, IMO. And I have to wonder how truly "intuitive" the Windows situation is, either. The old Windows versions used to have the word "Start" on the button, which at least gives some kind of hint that my computing journey "begins" there. I think since Vista or 7, it's basically just been the Windows icon. I suspect it's more intuitive than the macOS or GNOME analogs, but probably only a tiny bit if I were to sit someone down who hasn't used a Windows PC in their life.

pjmlp 2y ago

Two things that made me switch to XFCE, JavaScript based extensions affecting performance, complete refusal to add back support for Windows shading (roll up).

panick21_ 2y ago
That's why System76 is writting extensions in Rust and runs them in seperate processes.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Whatever compiled language, even with my C related rants, I am happier with C written XFCE extensions than the GNOME JavaScript ones. The separate process is an interesting point, back in the day dynamically loading code into the host process was the way to go, due to hardware resources and how demanding would be to use UNIX IPC for everything. Now a couple of years later, with the existing hardware resources, and the ongoing stability and security issues of loading code into process, turns out separate process is a good idea after all.
pmarreck 2y ago
which extensions are js-based? there's no gnome extension to do roll-up windows?
- pjmlp 2y ago
  All of them, since they replaced the C API with the JavaScript based one in GNOME 3.0 "GNOME Shell and extensions are written in GJS, which is JavaScript bindings for GNOME Platform APIs. For an overview of how extensions fit into GNOME Shell and the platform, see the Architecture page." https://gjs.guide/extensions/ https://gjs.guide/extensions/ Roll-up was never an extension on UNIX windows managers, having to install one is a joke on us. As for the GNOME developers stance on that, https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/1028 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/1028 Meanwhile XFCE, KDE, Windowmaker, Afterstep, Enlightment.... do them just fine.
  - ossusermivami 2y ago
    the shade issue seems to be an issue with wayland and whatnot as far i can tell..
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      That is why I wrote "Meanwhile XFCE, KDE, Windowmaker, Afterstep, Enlightment.... do them just fine. " to make the point the others handle it without excuses.

johnny22 2y ago

I would assume that it's because there are more people like me who use gnome. I kept using gnome 3 from gnome 2 because gnome 3 worked the way I was already using gnome 2. I tried using tiling window managers, but they didn't give me the niceties of the out of the box gnome experience. I do have one extension for topicons. (sometimes I use gsconnect, but not recently) I don't need anything else.

stonogo 2y ago

It took me a while to figure out what you mean by "real application launcher" but I think you mean that hitting the top left corner menu (or the Windows key) launches the fullscreen window overview plus launcher and that's not enough for you? I guess the "Dash to Dock" extension is what you're after but I can't say I've ever missed it. I don't really use the keyboard for it, but every time I use a non-GNOME system I badly miss the ability to just click in the corner to manage programs, whether switching between them or launching new ones. If GNOME got rid of this I would probably stop using GNOME.

whalesalad 2y ago
the app launcher really only works on a laptop with gestures. pain in the butt with a mouse, especially on a large display.
- kimixa 2y ago
  On desktop my hands are 99% of the time already in the right position for the keyboard shortcuts. I generally quite like the out-of-the-box gnome3+ experience, it fits my use cases pretty well (when I don't have a highly tweaked custom tiling window manager setup). It's nice to actually get choice, rather than 5 "choices" that are all chasing exactly the same style, if you prefer the XFCE or KDE experience, then that's what XFCE or KDE are for.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    Proper choice would be the ability to customize that kind of thing in the DE. Having to switch the DE completely over one simple thing like this is, frankly, ridiculous. But GNOME explicitly hates customizability.
    - ragnese 2y ago
      > Having to switch the DE completely over one simple thing like this is, frankly, ridiculous. And who is forcing you to switch DEs over one simple thing? The parent comment is merely suggesting that we use the DE that we like the most (or--I'll add--hate the least).

tadfisher 2y ago

> remains a huge usability misstep Evidence? The Gnome project has performed UX studies[0] to validate their design, and has continually made changes in response (some of which I disagree with, FWIW). [0]: https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Studies https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Studies

hobo_mark 2y ago
We just deployed RHEL9 and had to quickly revert gnome because users (and me!) had no effing idea how to use it. For instance, no button to minimize and maximize a window, no taskbar to switch between windows, what the actual...
- _urvc 2y ago
  It took me almost half a year to figure out that Firefox was missing the minimize/maximize button because Gnome by default hides them. And I only figured out after having to install Gnome Tweak tool because I moved to Gnome temporarily...
blueflow 2y ago
It is infuriating that they used systematic approaches to UX and still came up with the current thing. I said it before, too many implicit gestures that are not discoverable until you google for it. Last time i tried GNOME was last week and gave up after a day.
- colanderman 2y ago
  What implicit gestures? Everything in the Gnome desktop you can get to by clicking the "Activities" menu at the top-left: search bar, dock, applications button, minimized windows, and 2nd desktop all then become visible. Granted, the applications button icon is quite nondescript (9 dots). But it's still just 2 clicks of prominent UI elements away. Same # of clicks as Windows (Start -> Program Files) and MacOS (Finder -> Applications).
  - 2y ago

cm_silva 2y ago

I know it's not perfect but I use the 'dash to panel' extension

addicted 2y ago

Gnome is a DE designed to be used by distributions. Gnome doesn’t have an opinion on a desktop application launcher because it expects the distribution to add it. The only distributions which don’t are GnomeOS which is intended for developing Gnome, and Fedora, which is intended to be a bleeding edge distribution to mass release stuff before it’s included in RHEL. Turns out, however, that a lot of people actually like the default Gnome look and so are happy with using Fedora. But in practice this isn’t an issue for anyone because their distribution will come with an application launcher. And even better you can completely change and/or add an application launcher because they are implemented through extensions.

softirq 2y ago
Every DE is designed to be used in a distribution. I think what you are trying to say is that GNOME is designed to be "finished" by the distribution, which is a completely made up idea. Show me where GNOME says you need to finish the DE yourself during integration. GNOME is designed as a complete DE, the reason Canonical/System76 change it is because it's poorly designed for new users/casuals, which is their user base.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ragnese 2y ago
> Gnome is a DE designed to be used by distributions. > > Gnome doesn’t have an opinion on a desktop application launcher because it expects the distribution to add it. I don't think this is true at all. Where have you read this? If GNOME intended for distributions to customize it, I can't imagine why they'd keep harping on about how custom theming is awful. See: https://blogs.gnome.org/alatiera/2021/09/18/the-truth-they-are-not-telling-you-about-themes/ https://blogs.gnome.org/alatiera/2021/09/18/the-truth-they-a..., and https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-at-scale/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-a... I'm honestly surprised they still support adding extensions via extensions.gnome.org.
- Spivak 2y ago

petepete 2y ago

> So why does GNOME continue down this path. Because it's great and everyone apart from a tiny but incredibly vocal minority get on just fine with it.

iknowstuff 2y ago
Yeah! GNOME is wonderful. I can’t with the neckbeards.
- ragnese 2y ago
  I'm a neckbeard and I vastly prefer GNOME Shell to any other DE (including proprietary ones like on Windows and macOS). I still don't consider myself a "fan" and I have plenty of complaints about it- I just have way more complaints about all the others... :D
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
greyw 2y ago
GNOME seems to be least buggy DE and gets out of my way when doing things. A nice bonus is that it also looks and feels good. I used to use plasma but it was just too buggy for me. Just today a random user realized that installing a theme from the built-in theme selection thingy deleted all his data... I have some hope for cosmic DE as it seems like they try to emulate GNOME's workflow with some twists.
- Tainnor 2y ago
  As someone who had only used GNOME or DEs based on / inspired by it for 18 years, I had to switch over to KDE on my work laptop because GNOME was giving me endless trouble with the external monitor for some reason (to the point where I could choose between either ridiculously impractical resolutions or mouse flickering). I'm now actually quite satisfied with KDE (although I continue to use GNOME apps too). I guess every one of these DEs has their own share of bugs.
2y ago

olliej 2y ago

Last time I tried gnome it was in an Ubuntu install I think which had a weird launcher that imo didn’t work particularly well. I’m not sure what you are meaning by a launcher here - to me there’s a fairly reasonable ambiguity about what is meant. On windows people still seem to use shortcuts on the desktop as a primary launcher (especially given the current start menu abomination, sheesh talk about destroying one of the most effective bits of UI MS ever produced), on Mac I actually mostly use spotlight (though that usage is subject to the “secret chord” problem), but most normal users use the dock for common apps and the applications folder for everything else. I keep meaning to retry kde at some point but I’m waiting for more asahi work to support my desktop (they are reasonable to focus on the laptops but my laptop is my work machine so less willing to surrender disk space when llvm builds already consume half a TB). It’s weird to me that back when I was a primarily Linux user gnome was The(tm) commercial Linux desktop and kde was the clunky also-ran, I assumed the gnome was destined to win in the long term due to gtk APIs, commercial support, and at the time seemingly more polish and completeness. I guess things can change given a decade or so of development :D

jacooper 2y ago

Because not everyone likes a classic app launcher? I like how reliable gnome's search is, it replaces the start menu. I just click super, see my workspaces, all of my running apps and can just directly start typing and find the app I'm looking for. Why would I ever need a start menu? It's soo good that KDE added something similar recently.

webkike 2y ago

Gnome has a built in extension called “Applications Menu” that is just that. I don’t really use it that much. I find opening search and typing what I want much faster. Or I use the dock

yoyohello13 2y ago

I’m not sure what you mean by application launcher. Is Super not enough? Super, type 2 or 3 letters of the program I want, enter. Works really well for me.

wwarek 2y ago
Right? Also much faster than, I guess, scrolling with mouse through some menus
colanderman 2y ago
Vocally seconding this. I wanted to not like Gnome (longtime wmi/wmii/i3 user) but its application launcher (and actually everything to do with the super/three-finger swipe/hot corner system) is superb. I'm amazed how equally highly usable it is via keyboard, mouse, and touch.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  Yeah, I was a big DWM user for a long time. I finally bit the bullet and gave Gnome a chance on Fedora a few years ago and it has an amazing keyboard workflow out of the box. Plus the extra mouse gesture goodies. People complain a lot about Gnome but if you engage with Gnome on its own terms the workflow is actually fantastic.
wmf 2y ago
That's completely undiscoverable.
- colanderman 2y ago
  Click on "Activities" in the upper-left corner. (One of the few desktop UI elements.) It is exactly the same thing as pushing the Super key. A search bar pops up, start typing to search (EDIT: no 2nd click needed).
  - softirq 2y ago
    Which is terrible UI. Let's force the user to turn a flow they could do at any time by clicking a single button at the bottom of their desktop into a context switch into another window, followed by the same button click. Or know about the Magic Keyboard short cut, then type in multiple characters, then press enter. So in any case we're turning a single input into multiple inputs just to open a commonly used app.

mdasen 2y ago

I've been enjoying Budgie for this reason. It feels like a "normal" desktop experience with a taskbar at the bottom, something like a start-menu with the search functionality we're used to, and without anything really trying to be fancy or transparent. It just feels "regular". The criticism some people have of Budgie is that it feels like a customized version of GNOME rather than its own thing - but that's what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for something to ditch the good parts of GNOME. I'm looking for something that will just give me a regular desktop where things feel like what macOS or Windows have been offering for a couple decades.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago
Out of curiosity, why Budgie over XFCE, MATE, or LXDE? All of those are pretty much just a "normal" desktop experience with a taskbar, something like a start menu with search, or anything trying to be fancy or transparent. Nothing against Budgie, I'm just curious what made it stand out for you.

mushufasa 2y ago

Not sure how much this is still true, but as I recall, GNOME used to have a 'start' launcher like Windows, and removed it because of a lawsuit (gates/ballmer era Microsoft). That was the big motivation for gnome 2 to 3, and also why canonical split off unity for a while

ragnese 2y ago

> while the keyboard based workflows it seems to want to enable are better served by tiling WM such as Sway This is where I think your analysis starts to break down. Tiling and keyboard-oriented are almost orthogonal. There's no a priori reason that a tiling WM has to be keyboard-oriented, nor that floating WMs are inherently less accommodating to keyboard-oriented workflows. As an anecdote, way back in my youth, I had all kinds of keyboard shortcuts for resizing and moving windows by different amounts in my Openbox WM setups. Likewise, I really tried to like the popular tiling WMs (i3, xmonad, AwesomeWM), but I eventually realized that I can't literally be focusing on content from multiple windows simultaneously, and it makes way more sense for me to size and position each window so that I can optimize my interactions with that one when I am focusing on it. > do not make sense for the "default" WM that is picked up by casual converts who are used to a point and click system. Overall it's just a confusing mess for new users, which Canonical/System76 rationally get rid of (which is probably a majority of the GNOME user base). Let's be real, though. The year of Linux On The Desktop is not coming--hell, The Desktop is pretty much dying altogether. So, I really don't care if we optimize for the "casual computer user" who just happens to stumble into a chair in front of a Linux desktop, because that person doesn't exist. It may sound selfish, but I rather they optimize for users who already exist. > GNOME has come a long way, but its stubborn insistence on not having a desktop with a real application launcher remains a huge usability misstep. > [...] > So why does GNOME continue down this path. Is it a fear of being "just like everyone else" by using a tried and true dock/application bar? GNOME is actually fairly close to macOS in this regard. Yes, macOS has a dock with an application launcher, but if I didn't already know what the application launcher icon looks like, I'd have no idea how to get to its application launcher: the icon I'm looking at right now on my work Mac is a square icon with a 3x3 grid of colored squares inside it--what the hell does that mean? Is it a color picker app? Some kind of Tetris or Candy Crush game? GNOME's top-left stupid oval button is equally bad, but not worse, than macOS's UX discoverability, IMO. And I have to wonder how truly "intuitive" the Windows situation is, either. The old Windows versions used to have the word "Start" on the button, which at least gives some kind of hint that my computing journey "begins" there. I think since Vista or 7, it's basically just been the Windows icon. I suspect it's more intuitive than the macOS or GNOME analogs, but probably only a tiny bit if I were to sit someone down who hasn't used a Windows PC in their life.