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Unfortunately it means it's extremely hard to live in Paris if you're middle class. If you're upper middle class/rich, you can rent/buy. If you're poor, you ge

Unfortunately it means it's extremely hard to live in Paris if you're middle class. If you're upper middle class/rich, you can rent/buy. If you're poor, you get a chance to get public housing. If you're middle class, too bad for you.

jajko 2y ago
You can put this on whole France, this is general approach at least for past few decades. Ultra rich easily bypass all those populist moves to 'tax rich', poor have sometimes unreasonable protections (ie you can just stop paying rent, give big FU to the owner, change locks and maybe, theoretically after 6 months of courts he can evict you on his costs, while you trash the place into nothing without any recourse - some real cases of friends living there). Its outright the worst possible place in whole Europe to be rich (again, those ultra rich are off the quite corrupt system, just check all (super)yachts in whole Cote d'Azur), government goes after you like a rabid dog, inheritance tax is easily 40%. All the bankers I've talked to (not professionally, I am just a normal guy) advised against any investment in that country before you cross ultra high net worth line, then all this disappears. Yet absolutely nobody strikes against this corruption and unfairness, middle class just buckles up and continues, at least whats left of it.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > Its outright the worst possible place in whole Europe to be rich I guess it's a good thing Europe has free movement! They are free to be rich in Amsterdam, Berlin or Brussels. If the wealth is generated in France, then they should put up with the French inconveniences.
  - rastignack 2y ago
    Don’t worry I’m upper middle class and roughly 75% of my salary goes straight to taxes while everything that’s state provided (schools, hospitals, security, infrastructure) just collapses.
    - jamiek88 2y ago
      In France? How when the top tax rate is 45%?
      - anomaly_ 2y ago
        Income tax isn't the only tax people pay
      - devilsbabe 2y ago
        That's only income tax. There's also social contributions including pension, health insurance, and unemployment insurance. This adds up to around an extra 20% tax (although pension contributions are capped so could be less for very high salaries).
        rastignack 2y ago
        Also, VAT
mrtksn 2y ago
That's the same everywhere in the developed world. If you are too poor you are taken care of through social programs(even in the USA), if you are rich you take care of yourself but if you are middle class you will have to fight for this privilege everyday. It goes the same for the social norms. If you are poor you can have a trashy sex life and say whatever you like, if you are rich you also can have a trashy sex life and say whatever you like but if you are middle class you must have stable monogamous relationship with somebody of similar background and age(you can't just have sex with anyone between 18 and 80 and throw a scene, unlike the rich and the poor) and watch your mouth.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
The poor get a chance but not a very good one.
bigmattystyles 2y ago
Wowow, the rich have had it tough since the 90s (only the French born before 1988 or so will understand the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM
- johnchristopher 2y ago
  > Wowow, the rich have had it tough since the 90s (only the French born before 1988 or so will understand the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM Hahaha, it's not one of my favourites these days but it was all over the place at that time :D. edit: here's a more recent take https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maObYlDIRcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maObYlDIRcw
locallost 2y ago
Is it that much different from anywhere else in that regard? The fact the poorer people get something, doesn't mean they lose something. I'd guess on average despite higher cost of living, they wouldn't trade places.
yardie 2y ago
I'm middle class and lived in Paris. I had rich friends and poor friends. My rich friends owned flats that occupied entire floors of a building. My poor friends got whatever social housing was available. And my middle class friends rented or bought a place in the suburbs with more space. We owned, a relatively small by American standards 55sqm, 3F, flat in the city center. My middle class friends could also rent the same size flat on their salaries but none of them wanted to. They liked their space and garden. Their is give and take to everything in life. I don't think it's hard to live in Paris if you're in the middle class, but you certainly won't feel middle class doing it.
- HenriTEL 2y ago
  With 2 children you'll need about 65sqm. Hopefully the nursery is cheap compared to other cities -cough London- but it adds up. Basically you need to be in the upper middle class for a decent life with children in Paris.
- mlrtime 2y ago
  No middle class family in America has a family in 600 sq feet. You'd be hard pressed to even find this outside of a few areas in NYC.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    People typically move further out so they can afford something larger when they get kids. Since the city is dense you don't have to move very far for prices to drop steeply, unlike sparser cities, so you can still keep your job with a reasonable commute. I know a lot of people who lived near the center when they were single so they were close to everything, and then moved 15 minutes out when they get kids. Selling those small central apartments give a big boost towards getting a nice home outside the center. Not Paris but the same European layout with dense suburbs, it really isn't that expensive since those dense suburbs are still very close to the city center relative to American sprawl like in silicon valley where you have to drive for an hour to reach a cheap place, in Europe if you drive for an hour you get to the next city so even the cheapest suburbs are much closer than that.
- 2y ago

jajko 2y ago

You can put this on whole France, this is general approach at least for past few decades. Ultra rich easily bypass all those populist moves to 'tax rich', poor have sometimes unreasonable protections (ie you can just stop paying rent, give big FU to the owner, change locks and maybe, theoretically after 6 months of courts he can evict you on his costs, while you trash the place into nothing without any recourse - some real cases of friends living there). Its outright the worst possible place in whole Europe to be rich (again, those ultra rich are off the quite corrupt system, just check all (super)yachts in whole Cote d'Azur), government goes after you like a rabid dog, inheritance tax is easily 40%. All the bankers I've talked to (not professionally, I am just a normal guy) advised against any investment in that country before you cross ultra high net worth line, then all this disappears. Yet absolutely nobody strikes against this corruption and unfairness, middle class just buckles up and continues, at least whats left of it.

sangnoir 2y ago
> Its outright the worst possible place in whole Europe to be rich I guess it's a good thing Europe has free movement! They are free to be rich in Amsterdam, Berlin or Brussels. If the wealth is generated in France, then they should put up with the French inconveniences.
- rastignack 2y ago
  Don’t worry I’m upper middle class and roughly 75% of my salary goes straight to taxes while everything that’s state provided (schools, hospitals, security, infrastructure) just collapses.
  - jamiek88 2y ago
    In France? How when the top tax rate is 45%?
    - anomaly_ 2y ago
      Income tax isn't the only tax people pay
    - devilsbabe 2y ago
      That's only income tax. There's also social contributions including pension, health insurance, and unemployment insurance. This adds up to around an extra 20% tax (although pension contributions are capped so could be less for very high salaries).
      - rastignack 2y ago
        Also, VAT

mrtksn 2y ago

That's the same everywhere in the developed world. If you are too poor you are taken care of through social programs(even in the USA), if you are rich you take care of yourself but if you are middle class you will have to fight for this privilege everyday. It goes the same for the social norms. If you are poor you can have a trashy sex life and say whatever you like, if you are rich you also can have a trashy sex life and say whatever you like but if you are middle class you must have stable monogamous relationship with somebody of similar background and age(you can't just have sex with anyone between 18 and 80 and throw a scene, unlike the rich and the poor) and watch your mouth.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

The poor get a chance but not a very good one.

bigmattystyles 2y ago

Wowow, the rich have had it tough since the 90s (only the French born before 1988 or so will understand the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM

johnchristopher 2y ago
> Wowow, the rich have had it tough since the 90s (only the French born before 1988 or so will understand the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1N3WXZ_1LM Hahaha, it's not one of my favourites these days but it was all over the place at that time :D. edit: here's a more recent take https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maObYlDIRcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maObYlDIRcw

locallost 2y ago

Is it that much different from anywhere else in that regard? The fact the poorer people get something, doesn't mean they lose something. I'd guess on average despite higher cost of living, they wouldn't trade places.

yardie 2y ago

I'm middle class and lived in Paris. I had rich friends and poor friends. My rich friends owned flats that occupied entire floors of a building. My poor friends got whatever social housing was available. And my middle class friends rented or bought a place in the suburbs with more space. We owned, a relatively small by American standards 55sqm, 3F, flat in the city center. My middle class friends could also rent the same size flat on their salaries but none of them wanted to. They liked their space and garden. Their is give and take to everything in life. I don't think it's hard to live in Paris if you're in the middle class, but you certainly won't feel middle class doing it.

HenriTEL 2y ago
With 2 children you'll need about 65sqm. Hopefully the nursery is cheap compared to other cities -cough London- but it adds up. Basically you need to be in the upper middle class for a decent life with children in Paris.
mlrtime 2y ago
No middle class family in America has a family in 600 sq feet. You'd be hard pressed to even find this outside of a few areas in NYC.
- Jensson 2y ago
  People typically move further out so they can afford something larger when they get kids. Since the city is dense you don't have to move very far for prices to drop steeply, unlike sparser cities, so you can still keep your job with a reasonable commute. I know a lot of people who lived near the center when they were single so they were close to everything, and then moved 15 minutes out when they get kids. Selling those small central apartments give a big boost towards getting a nice home outside the center. Not Paris but the same European layout with dense suburbs, it really isn't that expensive since those dense suburbs are still very close to the city center relative to American sprawl like in silicon valley where you have to drive for an hour to reach a cheap place, in Europe if you drive for an hour you get to the next city so even the cheapest suburbs are much closer than that.
2y ago