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You should see how ADA requirements are practically impossible or completely break design. The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme tha

You should see how ADA requirements are practically impossible or completely break design. The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool interface.

pcl 3y ago
> “Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool interface.” No, that’s the wrong analogy. The ADA is there to ensure that people with wheelchairs can find a barrier-free entrance to a building, and a curb cut at an intersection. It should be on us, the developers, to ensure our apps work with the tools of the trade to enable people with limitations. So, our apps should be usable by screen readers. The screen reader is the analogue to the wheelchair here. This is one of the great things about HTML. Even ignorant / lazy / time-constrained developers are likely to output something that sorta works, just since they’re using divs and imgs and whatnot. And the bar is so low! Adding accessibility labels takes not much effort at all. And, as an added bonus, accessible apps are easier to test, since testing frameworks like Playwright can hook into accessibility info directly to validate assertions.
- coolliquidcode 3y ago
  > find a barrier-free entrance to a building, and a curb cut at an intersection I disagree with this too. It's a social nicety but shouldn't be a requirement. > It should be on us, the developers, to ensure our apps work with the tools of the trade to enable people with limitations Why? I argue it should be on the disabled person. > The bar is so low. Not really. There are groups of lowers running around looking for people to shake down for ADA misses. To really protect yourself it takes a lot of time.
JadeNB 3y ago
> Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. > Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool interface. How can buying a specialty browser solve a problem of a blind person needing alt text for images? You, as a developer, can determine when AI-generated text is good enough for your images—sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. A specialty browser cannot, and should not, be trusted to make that decision, so it will need hints from the developer. And, once the developer offers those hints, any mainstream browser, not just specialty products, can make use of them.
- coolliquidcode 3y ago
  It sucks to be disabled and this is why it sucks. People shouldn't be wasting lifetimes of time to so that visually disabled people can be slightly more convenienced to browse the internet or play with an app. Especially with alt-text. Minimal effort is fine. Well structured HTML is all that should be needed. > How can buying a specialty browser solve a problem of a blind person needing alt text for images? If a picture is worth a thousand words you're never going to get the alt text right. There can always be complaints it's not good enough. Look at what happened to Dominoes. They made efforts but it wasn't good enough.
  - extra88 3y ago
    Domino's did not make an effort until they lost in court. They even admitted during the course of the case that the requested fixes would cost like $58,000 to make, far less than the lawyers cost in the case and appeals.
    - coolliquidcode 3y ago
      You are arguing they should have been forced to pay 58k for unnecessary site improvements when each place has a phone line that can be called. They did have alt text but it was deemed not good enough. What real value did disabled customers miss out on?
mwcampbell 3y ago
> The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Why don't they just use high contrast? Why is readability so unfashionable?
- Filligree 3y ago
  Text contrast multiplies with the monitor contrast, which then multiplies again with eyesight quality. The high contrast requirement is to make it readable for someone with poor eyesight on a low-quality monitor... Which then makes it downright painful for someone with regular eyesight, who sets their monitor to high contrast to improve photo rendering. Grey-on-grey is the only website design that doesn't make me immediately back away.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- coolliquidcode 3y ago
  It's very high contrast. The comment meta on these posts fail it. I'm pretty any text against the orange in this site fails it too.
dataflow 3y ago
> The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. What's so wrong with black text on a white background that it's considered extreme?
- coolliquidcode 3y ago
  As you are using a site that is almost black text against a tan/grey background? For most copy I agree with you. But requiring that level of high contrast for titles, informational text, text over images, or some measure of flair so your site stands out a little it's too much of a requirement.
extra88 3y ago
> high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme Extreme? The WCAG standard for text most organizations use (Level AA) is 4.5:1 with 1:1 being black-on-black and 21:1 being black-on-white (or vice versa). The higher standard (Level AAA) is only 7:1. Most people wouldn't want to read your content if everything was 7:1 or lower. > Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions Facebook didn't upload those images, their users did, Facebook isn't responsible for them having good text alternatives. > Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around To go along with your poor analogy, blind people have "wheelchair" equivalents, called screen readers. They're useless if don't build "ramps" that meet established building standards, websites and apps that follow established standards.
- retrochameleon 3y ago
  I love your ramp analogy

pcl 3y ago

> “Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool interface.” No, that’s the wrong analogy. The ADA is there to ensure that people with wheelchairs can find a barrier-free entrance to a building, and a curb cut at an intersection. It should be on us, the developers, to ensure our apps work with the tools of the trade to enable people with limitations. So, our apps should be usable by screen readers. The screen reader is the analogue to the wheelchair here. This is one of the great things about HTML. Even ignorant / lazy / time-constrained developers are likely to output something that sorta works, just since they’re using divs and imgs and whatnot. And the bar is so low! Adding accessibility labels takes not much effort at all. And, as an added bonus, accessible apps are easier to test, since testing frameworks like Playwright can hook into accessibility info directly to validate assertions.

coolliquidcode 3y ago
> find a barrier-free entrance to a building, and a curb cut at an intersection I disagree with this too. It's a social nicety but shouldn't be a requirement. > It should be on us, the developers, to ensure our apps work with the tools of the trade to enable people with limitations Why? I argue it should be on the disabled person. > The bar is so low. Not really. There are groups of lowers running around looking for people to shake down for ADA misses. To really protect yourself it takes a lot of time.

JadeNB 3y ago

> Things like alt text is so time consuming it would be incredibly expensive to label all the images. Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions. > Really it shouldn't be up to the developer it should be up to the disabled person to buy tools. Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around, they should have to buy a specialty browser that handles their limited visibility needs or brail tool interface. How can buying a specialty browser solve a problem of a blind person needing alt text for images? You, as a developer, can determine when AI-generated text is good enough for your images—sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. A specialty browser cannot, and should not, be trusted to make that decision, so it will need hints from the developer. And, once the developer offers those hints, any mainstream browser, not just specialty products, can make use of them.

coolliquidcode 3y ago
It sucks to be disabled and this is why it sucks. People shouldn't be wasting lifetimes of time to so that visually disabled people can be slightly more convenienced to browse the internet or play with an app. Especially with alt-text. Minimal effort is fine. Well structured HTML is all that should be needed. > How can buying a specialty browser solve a problem of a blind person needing alt text for images? If a picture is worth a thousand words you're never going to get the alt text right. There can always be complaints it's not good enough. Look at what happened to Dominoes. They made efforts but it wasn't good enough.
- extra88 3y ago
  Domino's did not make an effort until they lost in court. They even admitted during the course of the case that the requested fixes would cost like $58,000 to make, far less than the lawyers cost in the case and appeals.
  - coolliquidcode 3y ago
    You are arguing they should have been forced to pay 58k for unnecessary site improvements when each place has a phone line that can be called. They did have alt text but it was deemed not good enough. What real value did disabled customers miss out on?

mwcampbell 3y ago

> The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. Why don't they just use high contrast? Why is readability so unfashionable?

Filligree 3y ago
Text contrast multiplies with the monitor contrast, which then multiplies again with eyesight quality. The high contrast requirement is to make it readable for someone with poor eyesight on a low-quality monitor... Which then makes it downright painful for someone with regular eyesight, who sets their monitor to high contrast to improve photo rendering. Grey-on-grey is the only website design that doesn't make me immediately back away.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
coolliquidcode 3y ago
It's very high contrast. The comment meta on these posts fail it. I'm pretty any text against the orange in this site fails it too.

dataflow 3y ago

> The high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme that most major sites and even ADA related sites fail. What's so wrong with black text on a white background that it's considered extreme?

coolliquidcode 3y ago
As you are using a site that is almost black text against a tan/grey background? For most copy I agree with you. But requiring that level of high contrast for titles, informational text, text over images, or some measure of flair so your site stands out a little it's too much of a requirement.

extra88 3y ago

> high contrast of font to background requirement is so extreme Extreme? The WCAG standard for text most organizations use (Level AA) is 4.5:1 with 1:1 being black-on-black and 21:1 being black-on-white (or vice versa). The higher standard (Level AAA) is only 7:1. Most people wouldn't want to read your content if everything was 7:1 or lower. > Facebook has long resorted to using AI descriptions Facebook didn't upload those images, their users did, Facebook isn't responsible for them having good text alternatives. > Just like someone may need to buy a wheelchair to move around To go along with your poor analogy, blind people have "wheelchair" equivalents, called screen readers. They're useless if don't build "ramps" that meet established building standards, websites and apps that follow established standards.

retrochameleon 3y ago
I love your ramp analogy