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I often find the definition of ultra processed difficult. I put pea protein powder in my smoothies. That is certainly ultra processed however it has good macro

I often find the definition of ultra processed difficult. I put pea protein powder in my smoothies. That is certainly ultra processed however it has good macro nutrients and is not empty calories. I understand the concept of “empty calories”, but ultra processed seems like a blend of that and how the food was made.

antif 3y ago
> certainly ultra processed Pardon, but where's the ultra processing? Isn't pea protein just dried peas in a blender? I figured ultra processed was reserved for things like ascorbic acid, pectin, and xanthan gum.
- float4 3y ago
  Most people buy pea protein isolate. This is a more complex product where the protein has actually been separated from the remainder of the peas. (Not sure if it would qualify as ultra processed though.)
  - antif 3y ago
    You're right on the isolate.. Just found this video showing how they're separating the starch and fiber from pea protein. https://youtu.be/wbX_w0ZIunM https://youtu.be/wbX_w0ZIunM
- TylerE 3y ago
  You’re literally pulverizing the peas. That’s pretty extreme processing compared to, say, steaming some veggies
  - gruez 3y ago
    But your mouth basically does the same thing?
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Smashing, not grinding. Not nearly as fine. Also, chemistry of food is very complicated... even if we stipulate that it's getting basically powder-ized in either case, if there's head involved in the process at any point it will behave very differently if it's pulverized before or after. (Think grinding flour vs chewing bread). I'll admit I'm now curious if plain, normal flour meets the definition of 'ultra processed'.
    - Scarblac 3y ago
      Yes, but then you spend more time chewing. And maybe that causes you eat less.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fjkdlsjflkds 3y ago
  > Pardon, but where's the ultra processing? Isn't pea protein just dried peas in a blender? Obviously not. Protein meal contains 20 to 25% protein, while pea protein concentrates/isolates have more than 80% protein. For more information on the process required to reach such high levels of protein, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_protein > I figured ultra processed was reserved for things like ascorbic acid, pectin, and xanthan gum. You could have chosen better examples. All those three things are naturally occurring in non-processed foods, two of them are not even digestible by humans (both pectin and xanthan gum are technically "soluble fiber"), and the other one is a water-soluble vitamin (i.e., good luck overdosing or suffering from chronic exposure from that).
  - adammarples 3y ago
    Yes, pretty much. They're made by a process called fractionation which is basically a mill (a blender if you like) and then clever air classification and centrifuge so that the constituent parts get separated by weight.
    - fjkdlsjflkds 3y ago
      Yup, for pea protein concentrates obtained by dry fractionation (arguably a slighly more complicated processing process than "just dried peas in a blender").
rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
>Ultra-processed foods (…) are not modified foods but formulations made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact Group 1 food. https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/public-health-nutrition/article/nutrition-and-health-the-issue-is-not-food-nor-nutrients-so-much-as-processing/0C514FC9DB264538F83D5D34A81BB10A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/public-health-nutrit...
passwordoops 3y ago
I'm sure "ultra processed" is a term concocted by the industry to cause a muddying of the waters leading to discussions of semantics over specifics.
TillE 3y ago
There's obviously nothing inherently evil about "processing". If you put some fruit in a blender you've made no significant changes to its nutritional value. The terminology is so annoying because it's hopelessly vague to the layperson. The actual research I've seen generally finds that the problem with "ultra processed" commercial foods are the usual familiar villains: salt, sugar, saturated fat.
- azinman2 3y ago
  Having put fruit in a blender you are changing how it’ll get absorbed, because the blender did the breaking down versus your body. You probably changed how nature of the fiber in the fruit.
  - soco 3y ago
    Also blending means no more chewing, aka less saliva to help breaking down things. Most blenders warm up the mix because yeah high speed, which means less vitamin as well. And there may be more aspects, I'm no nutritionist...
    - 93po 3y ago
      also means you eat a lot faster and therefore probably more
    - darkclouds 3y ago
      [dead]
  - tarboreus 3y ago
    This is true. Also, when was the last time you sat down and ate five oranges? Processing changes what you eat. Oranges are pretty good for you, orange juice often is not.
- nprateem 3y ago
  I read something saying blending in industrial food production affects absorption into the body which is thought to cause some of tut negative effects. So yes, the industrial production methods are also implicated.
randerson 3y ago
The definition I've seen before is: If there are ingredients on the label that you cannot buy in a grocery store, it is ultra-processed.
_ea1k 3y ago
Indeed... this term is about as useful as "chemical" or the general usage of the word "toxin". It can mean a lot of things and is generally ill-defined, but it somehow always manages to sound scary.
Scarblac 3y ago
That's the weird thing about about this field, the definition for ultra processed they use is pretty arbitrary from (iirc) some Brazilian paper. And still, effects are found. So it's really important what the mechanism is why e.g. it leads to higher calory intake. I think it's something to do with mouth texture or chewiness that causes us to eat more of processed foods, but I've only read a small bit.
carbine 3y ago
A helpful framing I once got from a nutritionist: "processed" food exists on a spectrum. Could you make it at home, or at least conceive of how to make it at home? (i.e. a can of soup, a baked cracker); or would it require a lab and advanced chemistry?
voisin 3y ago
Off topic but I just switched to hemp protein. It contains omegas, and has a hugely positive ratio of potassium to sodium, whereas pea protein has no omegas and super high sodium (apparently to isolate pea protein it is washed in a salt brine). The drawback is that the protein per gram of powder is a bit lower.

antif 3y ago

> certainly ultra processed Pardon, but where's the ultra processing? Isn't pea protein just dried peas in a blender? I figured ultra processed was reserved for things like ascorbic acid, pectin, and xanthan gum.

float4 3y ago
Most people buy pea protein isolate. This is a more complex product where the protein has actually been separated from the remainder of the peas. (Not sure if it would qualify as ultra processed though.)
- antif 3y ago
  You're right on the isolate.. Just found this video showing how they're separating the starch and fiber from pea protein. https://youtu.be/wbX_w0ZIunM https://youtu.be/wbX_w0ZIunM
TylerE 3y ago
You’re literally pulverizing the peas. That’s pretty extreme processing compared to, say, steaming some veggies
- gruez 3y ago
  But your mouth basically does the same thing?
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Smashing, not grinding. Not nearly as fine. Also, chemistry of food is very complicated... even if we stipulate that it's getting basically powder-ized in either case, if there's head involved in the process at any point it will behave very differently if it's pulverized before or after. (Think grinding flour vs chewing bread). I'll admit I'm now curious if plain, normal flour meets the definition of 'ultra processed'.
  - Scarblac 3y ago
    Yes, but then you spend more time chewing. And maybe that causes you eat less.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fjkdlsjflkds 3y ago
> Pardon, but where's the ultra processing? Isn't pea protein just dried peas in a blender? Obviously not. Protein meal contains 20 to 25% protein, while pea protein concentrates/isolates have more than 80% protein. For more information on the process required to reach such high levels of protein, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_protein > I figured ultra processed was reserved for things like ascorbic acid, pectin, and xanthan gum. You could have chosen better examples. All those three things are naturally occurring in non-processed foods, two of them are not even digestible by humans (both pectin and xanthan gum are technically "soluble fiber"), and the other one is a water-soluble vitamin (i.e., good luck overdosing or suffering from chronic exposure from that).
- adammarples 3y ago
  Yes, pretty much. They're made by a process called fractionation which is basically a mill (a blender if you like) and then clever air classification and centrifuge so that the constituent parts get separated by weight.
  - fjkdlsjflkds 3y ago
    Yup, for pea protein concentrates obtained by dry fractionation (arguably a slighly more complicated processing process than "just dried peas in a blender").

rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago

>Ultra-processed foods (…) are not modified foods but formulations made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact Group 1 food. https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/public-health-nutrition/article/nutrition-and-health-the-issue-is-not-food-nor-nutrients-so-much-as-processing/0C514FC9DB264538F83D5D34A81BB10A https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/public-health-nutrit...

passwordoops 3y ago

I'm sure "ultra processed" is a term concocted by the industry to cause a muddying of the waters leading to discussions of semantics over specifics.

TillE 3y ago

There's obviously nothing inherently evil about "processing". If you put some fruit in a blender you've made no significant changes to its nutritional value. The terminology is so annoying because it's hopelessly vague to the layperson. The actual research I've seen generally finds that the problem with "ultra processed" commercial foods are the usual familiar villains: salt, sugar, saturated fat.

azinman2 3y ago
Having put fruit in a blender you are changing how it’ll get absorbed, because the blender did the breaking down versus your body. You probably changed how nature of the fiber in the fruit.
- soco 3y ago
  Also blending means no more chewing, aka less saliva to help breaking down things. Most blenders warm up the mix because yeah high speed, which means less vitamin as well. And there may be more aspects, I'm no nutritionist...
  - 93po 3y ago
    also means you eat a lot faster and therefore probably more
  - darkclouds 3y ago
    [dead]
- tarboreus 3y ago
  This is true. Also, when was the last time you sat down and ate five oranges? Processing changes what you eat. Oranges are pretty good for you, orange juice often is not.
nprateem 3y ago
I read something saying blending in industrial food production affects absorption into the body which is thought to cause some of tut negative effects. So yes, the industrial production methods are also implicated.

randerson 3y ago

The definition I've seen before is: If there are ingredients on the label that you cannot buy in a grocery store, it is ultra-processed.

_ea1k 3y ago

Indeed... this term is about as useful as "chemical" or the general usage of the word "toxin". It can mean a lot of things and is generally ill-defined, but it somehow always manages to sound scary.

Scarblac 3y ago

That's the weird thing about about this field, the definition for ultra processed they use is pretty arbitrary from (iirc) some Brazilian paper. And still, effects are found. So it's really important what the mechanism is why e.g. it leads to higher calory intake. I think it's something to do with mouth texture or chewiness that causes us to eat more of processed foods, but I've only read a small bit.

carbine 3y ago

A helpful framing I once got from a nutritionist: "processed" food exists on a spectrum. Could you make it at home, or at least conceive of how to make it at home? (i.e. a can of soup, a baked cracker); or would it require a lab and advanced chemistry?

voisin 3y ago

Off topic but I just switched to hemp protein. It contains omegas, and has a hugely positive ratio of potassium to sodium, whereas pea protein has no omegas and super high sodium (apparently to isolate pea protein it is washed in a salt brine). The drawback is that the protein per gram of powder is a bit lower.