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They should do the opposite: not require law school but make the bar exam harder. Vermont, California, and Virginia do not require law school.
by in3d 3y ago
They should do the opposite: not require law school but make the bar exam harder. Vermont, California, and Virginia do not require law school.
- thaumasiotes 3y agoRequiring an exam is a much better policy than requiring law school. But it would be better to do neither.
- nickburns 3y agoi do believe there is a certain responsibility a lawyer swears to ethically uphold and maintain toward lay society which justifiably warrants some reasonable evaluation of the degree to which the candidate is able to comprehend and/or adhere to that oath. an academic degree, an exam, and a professional license application are certainly valid ways to do that. are you suggesting only the fitness and character assessment should be necessary? or do you disagree with that requirement as well?
- shicholas 3y agoimo fitness & character is absolutely necessary, rote memorization tests aren't. (ofc you want your lawyer to go off the top of their head instead of looking things up when you explain your problems /s)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- thaumasiotes 3y agoActually, I'd suggest that licensing of lawyers violates the constitutional guarantee of a right to an attorney. It is viewed by the modern system as a positive right, an obligation on the part of existing attorneys to work for you for free. But that is obviously not what was intended; it is meant as the right of anyone to be represented by a designee, as opposed to being required to represent themselves, and this has been criminalized today. > i do believe there is a certain responsibility a lawyer swears to ethically uphold and maintain toward lay society which justifiably warrants some reasonable evaluation of the degree to which the candidate is able to comprehend and/or adhere to that oath. This is just an argument that licensure has benefits. That's true, but they don't exceed the costs.
- AmVess 3y agoOnly a foolish person would hire or retain the services of a "lawyer" that has neither a law degree nor a bar card.
- gnicholas 3y agoAs a lawyer, this was my first thought. Caveat emptor!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rayiner 3y agoCorrect. Law school is a far bigger barrier to “marginalized groups … becoming practicing attorneys” than the bar exam. But law schools are extremely influential in the bar and have hundreds of thousands of reasons to point the figures at the bar exam instead.
- phmqk76 3y agoLet’s get rid of med schools, too. Right? I volunteer you as the first patient for those “doctors” who didn’t go to med school…
- loeg 3y agoYou are being sarcastic, but we could definitely streamline the way doctors are educated in the US! The UK does medical degrees through a 5-6 year undergrad program, compared with 4 year undergrad + 4 year medical school in the US.
- phmqk76 2y agoI don’t disagree with you. I’m all for perennial reevaluations of how we train professionals to make sure we’re producing the best and brightest. But there is definitely a libertarian strain (especially among these commenters) that shits on formal education, which is dangerous and intellectually lazy.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- AaronM 3y agoIn VT though its really difficult to become a lawyer this way, as an existing judge or lawyer has to be willing to apprentice you and prepare you for the exam. You also still need a 4 year degree to enter the program. https://www.vermontjudiciary.org/sites/default/files/documents/LOS%20Info.pdf https://www.vermontjudiciary.org/sites/default/files/documen...
- shicholas 3y agoDisagree, IAAL and they should both eliminate the bar exam and the law school requirements. We need more lawyers subject to background checks and swearing an oath to act ethically. There’s an ethics test called the MPRE that should stay. We need more lawyers bc imo the biggest need with AI is trust and safety, and that’s something humans must decide for ourselves in perpetuity, we need as many diverse voices as possible to ensure equity for everyone.
- nonethewiser 3y agoHow would you rank the merits of candidates?
- shicholas 3y agoIMO anyone who passes the MPRE and a background check is fit to serve - free market and who customers choose to rank the merits of their lawyers is their own prerogative. I'm against the gatekeeping to the profession. Once you're a lawyer checks like malpractice insurance are great for everyone.
- post-it 3y agoWe should also remove food standards regulations. Free market and who customers choose to rank the safety of their food is their own prerogative. /s
- shicholas 3y agoMissing my point, ethics regulations like Model Rules of Professional Conduct that lawyers must adhere to are important like the health code. We should make it easier for anyone to be a lawyer, just like you or I can open a restaurant. If you serve cockroaches in your food or give fraudulent advice, you should be blasted on the local news (and sued).
- kelnos 3y ago
- nonethewiser 3y agoAgree strongly. Removing the bar just makes it more political. The objective, merit based standards are the solution.
- afavour 3y agoIs the bar objective?
- klodolph 3y agoYes, it subjectively more objective. (Like, I’m making a cute response here, but there’s not exactly an objective standard for objectivity, when you come down to it. Turtles all the way down and all that.)
- shicholas 3y agoThe bar is bullshit, I had to memorize stuff like "men couldn't file for rape under common law" WTF is that.
- klipt 3y agoSometimes to correct injustices you need to study them.
- shicholas 3y agoagree, but not in the context of a gatekeeping exam.
- gnicholas 3y agoWas that on the MBE or a particular state bar? I don't remember having to learn what was or wasn't common law.
- shicholas 3y agothis was from my barbri class, hopefully you don't have to know that.
- throwup238 3y ago> Vermont, California, and Virginia do not require law school. California requires >2,000 hours apprenticeship under a practicing lawyer which is even harder (and more exclusive) than law school. It is theoretically cheaper but in reality not very practical as an alternative. Very few people in California pass the bar without law school via the apprenticeship track. Most years, zero people pass that way.
- gnicholas 3y ago> Very few people in California pass the bar without law school via the apprenticeship track. Most years, zero people pass that way. I would bet that the readiness/ability of the people who attempt the apprenticeship track is much lower than those who attend CA law schools. This may be the reason that so few people succeed via this route — not because it's harder.
- ken47 3y agoYou would only take this route if you lacked the means to pay law school tuition, or maybe if your parents were reputable attorneys who are willing to apprentice you.
- donw 3y agoOr disreputable attorneys with a winning attitude.
- gnicholas 3y agoI wish this were more popular. It could work for lawyers in a particular niche (entertainment law, insurance law) where the value of working for a couple years clearly outweighs the benefit of taking regular law school classes. The main issue is the prestige factor. People will assume that you couldn't get into a decent law school if you went that route. Perhaps some students with sterling undergraduate credentials could try to break through and get jobs based on their undergrad connections.
- throwup238 3y ago
- phmqk76 3y agoSpoken like someone with zero legal experience.
- bobthepanda 3y agoFrom TFA: > Lastly, law clerks can become lawyers without enrolling in law school by completing standardized educational materials and benchmarks under the guidance of a mentoring attorney, along with the 500 hours of work as a licensed legal intern.
- gnicholas 3y agoThe 500 hours is somewhat meaningless because that could all end up being doc review on a single case. That is to say, it's possible to complete hundreds of hours of work without actually learning anything about the law. (IAAL)
- adrianba 3y agoLaw school was already not required to sit the bar exam in Washington State. See https://www.wsba.org/for-legal-professionals/join-the-legal-profession-in-wa/law-clerk https://www.wsba.org/for-legal-professionals/join-the-legal-....