11 ms·

Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

379 points by xNeil 3y ago

Pwntheon 3y ago
What's the context here? This is not the whole book I think?
- throw_away_8080 3y ago
  Originally it was just a short story. The book was published later.
  - Damogran6 3y ago
    And there was an educational version, I read it in junior high. Read the full version in Highschool (not as part of a class).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
I think FfA is a bigger part of our culture than we realize. I use it to describe the 12 hours between waking and adderall wearing off and most people track (a non-frivolous comparison).
- badcppdev 3y ago
  Sorry can you elaborate or provide a link to what you're alluding to? Is Adderall generally considered an intelligence booster?
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > Is Adderall generally considered an intelligence booster? I'd say it boosts ability to utilize cognition. For me it thins brain fog and clarifies what I can see on the other side. With it, I can reason to the point where learning and understanding happens. For a period of time. Most days.
stanac 3y ago
I am currently reading the book (halfway trough) so I am not going to read the paper out of the fear of spoilers. I just want to recommend the book and say that the book is incredible, emotional roller coaster like nothing I have read so far.
sorokod 3y ago
I remember reading the story for the first time and my feelings of pity and horror when the protagonist's decline began. With lifespans increasing, many of us will have Charlie's experience.
- xNeil 3y ago
  It is quite the impactful story. Saw it under a Twitter (X) thread on IQ and orders of thinking - worth the read.
- techwizrd 3y ago
  We read this aloud together in grade school. I skipped ahead and thoroughly regretted it. The class was still in the hopeful portion, and I had to watch them come to the same realization I did. When you're that young, you're used to the idea that you will constantly learn, grow, and expand your horizons. The idea of regression is both real and likely is frightening and motivating. It's truly a story that has stuck with me.
  - myth2018 3y ago
    That's an interesting insight. I didn't notice that Charlie's trajectory also works as an allegory for the regular mental decline of the average person
    - sorokod 3y ago
      Charlie's trajectory may be your trajectory, not as an allegory. You may be that average person.
      - mrexroad 3y ago
        s/allegory/analogy/ It may just be a side effect of my dyslexia coping, but I read it as ‘analogy’ until reading your comment. Even then, I’m am pretty sure everyone knew they meant ‘analogy’ and just moved on. It’s okay to point out mistakes, but please be civil when doing so.
throwaway_89282 3y ago
[flagged]
- xkbarkar 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - marliechiller 3y ago
    Can you explain why you think that way? Long covid gives people varying degrees of brainfog and debilitation ranging from simple forgetfulness all the way to being bed bound and needing round the clock care. It seems quite apt to me
    - n4r9 3y ago
      The situations are almost entirely unrelated. COVID is a virus that unintentionally spread and in rare cases causes an ongoing reduction in capacity from one's baseline. FfA has a surgical technique which is applied to single person to raise them above their baseline, and then gradually they fall back to their pre-exisitng baseline. Seems like OP was using a tenuous parallel to score some cheap political or perhaps conspiratorial point.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      I think the OP is mostly there but didn't stick the landing. I use FfA comparatively to describe a cognitive a-b-a trip. But re-titling the story - that might associate the underlying story details as well. Nuance needs some exp (for some of us, lots). Hopefully we're patient.
nicbou 3y ago
This book was a good read
croes 3y ago
Same post two years ago, 210 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692
- oven9342 3y ago
  [flagged]
roshin 3y ago
Great story, but terrible title. I'm not sure exactly what the point of a title is, but if it's to inform about what the story is, or entice, it does neither.
- WJW 3y ago
  Many fictional titles explain very little if you have not already read the work. Take "lord of the rings" for example, or "Anna Karenina", or even "the Bible". "Flowers for Algernon" is a fine, memorable title that makes sense in the context of what the story is about.
  - arethuza 3y ago
    I consulted an AI to see if it could recommend a better title for "Lord of the Rings" - and (I am not making this up) it suggested "Ringworld"....
    - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
      Do I hear the librarian going "Ook"? Sir Terry must be turning in his grave. Edit: Note -- I confused Ringworld with Discworld, as pointed out by rowyourboat below.
      - rowyourboat 3y ago
        I think you are confusing rings with discs. Larry Niven is the one doing the spinning
        mangamadaiyan 3y ago
        My apologies. You are correct indeed.
      - zem 3y ago
        to bring this full circle, terry pratchett's early science fiction novel "strata" was largely a parody of "ringworld". not as good as his post-stride-hitting discworld books, but worth a read anyway
Zealotux 3y ago
The first book I couldn't put down and had to read in one sitting. It may be the origin of my fear of mental decline, which is much more horrific than death to me.
- the-chitmonger 3y ago
  Hard agree - this book inspired a fear in me that led me to seek every possible preventative method to combat dementia or other neurodegenerative diseases. In case anyone wants to see my (admittedly amateur) research, I've listed some things I've found below. - Exercise regularly and mitigate conditions like diabetes, hypertension*, high cholesterol [1] (aerobic exercise seems to be the best for this, likely because it increases cerebral blood flow) - Avoid night shift work/disrupting the circadian rhythm [2] (seems to be linked to poor sleep's impact on cardiovascular health, which has in turn seen a strong link to dementia developing) - Increase your cognitive reserve (math is very commonly mentioned as a way to boost this but I don't think it's the only way) seems to insulate you from the impacts of dementia [3] (this citation isn't a formal paper per se but this statement has been echoed across other articles[4][5]) - Read something regularly [6][7] (I have also seen articles mentioning reciting mantras, but I can't find them at the moment) - Small doses of nicotine [8][9][10] (I am at work right now so I cannot verify whether or not these studies were funded by tobacco companies - maybe take this one with a grain of salt. Additionally, smoking cigarettes have been linked to an increased risk of dementia. It may be better to try patches or lozenges?) * There are studies[11][12][13] that suggest high blood pressure in seniors can lead to an increased risk of dementia or worsened cognitive function for those with dementia. One common guess is that the reduced blood flow to the brain in old age is the primary issue, but it could be another covariate that leads to . Not a concern for most of us on this site (I think) [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258000/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6164904/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6164904/ [3] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-is-cognitive-reserve https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-is-cogniti... [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507991/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507991/ [5] https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/news/building-cognitive-reserve-could-protect-against-memory-and-thinking-decline-even-with-low-childhood-cognition-scores/ https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/news/building-cognitive... [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8482376/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8482376/ [7] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911991/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911991/ [8] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7912116/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7912116/ [9] https://actaneurocomms.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40478-018-0625-y https://actaneurocomms.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s4... [10] https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvement-through-nicotine-dosing-mind https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvemen... [11] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8608286/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8608286/ [12] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2173093 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... [13] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14694027/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14694027/ Edited for markdown
xkbarkar 3y ago
I just finished this book. I felt the author could have done more with Charlies genius stage. Not sure why, that part just felt flat somehow. The rising and the subsequent decline stages were really gripping though. Like he was describing the thought process of a surprised friendly dog. Id give it 4/5. Really good story.
- throwaway81523 3y ago
  You might like Camp Concentration by Thomas M. Disch. Similar sort of premise but goes further.
  - xkbarkar 3y ago
    Thanks for the tip. Looks really interesting. I'll check it out.
bigie35 3y ago
Read the short story just a few weeks ago. It's still one of my favorite. So beautiful, so haunting.
lasermike026 3y ago
This book left me gutted.
api 3y ago
A friend of mine brought this book up when she finally went on ADD medication. At first she was like "wow, I can function!" Then she remembered reading this story and says she always fears the medication no longer working. A classic, and increasingly relevant as we continue to push the limits of improving human performance and fixing sub-optimal neurological phenomena like depression and ADD/ADHD.
- hirvi74 3y ago
  As someone with ADHD, I have had this discussion with doctors numerous times. Not a single one of them have ever read F4A, but many were aware of the plot at least. I still warn people new to ADHD about the sinister side(s) of medication. One of the issues I learned real quick during the shortage of the past few years is that what ever is "given" can be "taken." I have a decent enough job that provides me a stable life. Nothing to write home about. However, when I was off medication for bits during the shortage, I noticed that my life was built on a house a cards. I managed to create a life that I could not sustain without medication. Everything worked out in the end, but I got a nice glimpse of the what awaited me, and it's a long fall back to rock bottom. It's made me a bit paranoid in the sense that I feel like I have to be overly cautious about financial and occupational decisions (not a bad thing, I suppose). If I were to buy a house with a certain level of income or take on a new role, I need to be certain that in a "worst case scenario" that I can still chew whatever I bit off.
  - api 3y ago
    I guess all of humanity is in this condition with regard to modern technology. One solar flare and we re-learn what it’s like to dig in the mud in the cold covered in parasites and then die of plague. Life is layers and layers of fragile.
    - hirvi74 3y ago
      I agree, and I think that is partly my problem to some degree -- a problem that stems from luxury. Modern technology is kind of the root of most of my issues. I could survive like most people because the expectation of sitting in an office for 8+ hours a day would vanish. My deficits might be reduced, nonexistent, and/or potentially beneficial. I guess in some sense, I would imagine I might feel more "capable" in the world of a muddy fight for our survival. Then again, I could just die in childhood from a deep cut. Of course, modern life is too good to give up. Despite its comforts, it's clear modern life benefits some more than others (or any lifestyle for that matter). Thanks for reminding me to be thankful for what I do have. :)
Abhitaneja89 3y ago
[dead]
jjice 3y ago
This story is part of the reason I'd never want to know about where I land intelligence wise compared to other people. No matter the outcome, I don't think it could be good. I it's below average, I'll feel limited. If it's above average, I'll have added pressure of self expectations and maybe arrogance. That's not the case for everyone, but I'm happy where I am currently. Back to the story - the use of grammar and spelling that progress throughout the story is so simple, but such a great way to portray his progress aside from the content of the story.
- gmadsen 3y ago
  How is that possible to not know? Have you never worked on a team?
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    I mean, there is a difference between an informed estimate and knowing for sure. Maybe that person you always work with is not the brightest programmer, but maybe they don't care about it as much as you. People can demonstrate intelligence is many different ways. Plus, if they doesn't want to know, why does it matter? It's their life to live in ignorance. For this specific topic, I don't see any harm in leaving your actual IQ number a mystery for the cosmos.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I don't know how they would know for sure. The result of a test? I'm sure it differs among domains in any case.
    - icedchai 3y ago
      As an 1980's "gifted" kid, believe me, they made sure you knew. IQ tests in 3rd grade, "enrichment" classes 3x a week, taking the SAT in 7th grade for some special program. Later in life, most of these gifted kids were total disappointments. I know I am.
      - throwway120385 3y ago
nottorp 3y ago
Isn't this a grievous act of piracy? Daniel Keyes only died in 2014 so this story should be under The Holy Copyright (r) (tm) until 2089! All repent and praise the Mouse!
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  I was gonna say, I don't think piracy like this is allowed on HN. Of course, piracy and the like is only a thing if someone enforces it, so as long as there's no takedown notices to HN or the site that hosts it there's nothing to do I suppose.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Holy $DEITY, i did the math. Flowers for Algernon was first published in 1959 in story form... this means it will be under copyright for 130 years. Of course this is a masterpiece and isn't likely to get lost... but which copyright holder is going to keep the B and C lists available for legal access for the whole 130 years? And speaking of which, is the story form of Flowers for Algernon available legally anywhere? The lengthened book form yes, probably. But personally I think the original form is better. Thanks Disney.
    - bentley 3y ago
      No, since it was published before the Copyright Act of 1976 took effect, it will be under copyright for 95 years, expiring in 2055.
      - nottorp 3y ago
        In which countries? Didn't the latest global whateveritscalled copyright treaty pick the 75 years after the author's death thing for everything?
dsign 3y ago
Tons of people scared of mental and other forms of decline here. Hey, I got news! It's 2024. We understand a fair deal more of how our biochemistry works. We have more computing power than ever, and it's going to be increasing thanks to the crazy amounts of computing power our latest AIs need. That means that we can understand even more of how our biochemistry works by doing exactly what each drug company is doing: running computer simulations. If your eventual decline scares you, it's unlikely that you can change your outcomes. But not impossible. It's still perfectly rational to find your peace in resignation, but it's not the only option anymore.
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  There are a lot of things that can already be done - for me I have ADHD related dopamine dysregulation resulting in brain fog so I take slow acting dopamine reuptake inhibitors in the form of low dose modafinil. I also take strict care of my diet, sleep and other medications and I feel as sharp as ever. And since I'm already on top of it I do hope that I can maintain this into old age. I have a friend and former work colleague in his early 50s that is clearly suffering from a similar worsening ADHD brain fog but I've been unable to convince him to do anything about it. Every time I try he acts as if it's the first time I'm mentioning it. He knows he has memory issues but considers it more of a problem for other people since he is still able to cope within his daily routines. He is very anti-medication and thinks there is nothing really wrong with him. I think some medications and lifestyle changes could clear up his brain fog and bring him back to full mental capacity. I don't think he is past the point of no-return physically but there is no way for me to convince him to try meds, so in effect he's past the point of no-return mentally. It's like watching a slow motion train wreck that is still preventable but all my attempts at preventing it have thus far been ineffectual and likely always will be.
- damontal 3y ago
  Either way you will certainly decline and eventually die.
keiferski 3y ago
It's interesting to compare this story to the movie Limitless, which has a fairly similar premise, but ends on a positive note. Algernon seems to have more influence, probably because of it is fundamentally a kind of morality tale, but I actually kind of prefer Limitless, [0] as limited as its plot is. There is something motivational about it, which is probably why there are so many YouTube productivity videos with the soundtrack. [1] I get the same feeling from The Last Samurai a book (unrelated to the Tom Cruise movie) by Helen DeWitt, which is about raising a genius child. I don't know what the psychological effect is called, but there does seem to be something significant to the idea that it's inspiring to read about/watch extremely intelligent people flexing their intelligence. 0. The film is based on a book, The Dark Fields, which doesn't seem quite so positive, although I haven't read it. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BRQ9neSrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BRQ9neSrw
- trylfthsk 3y ago
  Can also recommend the Ted Chiang story Understand [1], which adds in a dash of The Most Dangerous Game. [1] https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40835 https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40835
  - keiferski 3y ago
    Ah yes I read that one too and it's another good example.
  - javajosh 3y ago
    I love Ted Chiang and that story is a banger. The movies like Limitless, Lucy or Phenomenon don't really take the concept to its conclusions. Limitless posits day trading, or politics, as the highest goal. Lucy goes post human in a silly, fantasy way. Phenomenon was pretty cool except for the telekinesis. But Understand sort of hits all the bases and I really like the thesis that there is an irreducible, existential struggle between Utilitarianism and Aesthetics. And of course, the realization that the protag is actually the bad guy. Not a huge fan of the idea of "programming" another person with engrams and random stuff in the environment, to like, die, but it's more plausible than telekinesis! He also wrote the best, IMHO, time-travel story ever written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_and_the_Alchemist%27s_Gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_and_the_Alchemist.... A gorgeous little tale.
JoeDaDude 3y ago
This was the basis for the film Charly [1] (disclaimer: I've read the story but have not seen the film). [1[]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charly_(1968_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charly_(1968_film)
sampa 3y ago
tear-squeezing teen novel PS When I read it was so fake when the then-genius protagonist (that is on above-human level) finds it oh-so interesting to talk to that woman-professor.
dizhn 3y ago
That twist could be seen coming from a mile away. Years and years of media consumption probably. ("Seinfeld is not funny")
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  It's 50 years old and has been parodied and copied many times.
  - jabroni_salad 3y ago
    Not only that but the author specifically wanted to write a "classic tragedy". Of course it hits familiar story beats.
eismcc 3y ago
After my class read this book in high school, we wrote the author and he responded. How often does that happen in today’s schools?
- TheHypnotist 3y ago
  Writing the author or the author responding?
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  Probably not often, the author died in 2014.
  - Topgamer7 3y ago
    I think he was referring to schools writing to authors. Not this author. Maybe referring to the author responding too.
    - L1fescape 3y ago
      [flagged]
- bartvk 3y ago
  Amazing huh? Me and my daughter finished this Dutch bedtime story book, and we wrote the artist to to tell him how much we liked his work. We actually received a heartwarming reply back, in which he gracefully accepted the compliment, and wished us well.
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  It depends what the book is. For science fiction (or fantasy) stories like this, it's pretty common. And many are actually pretty active on social media as well. Probably the most well known example is Neil Gaiman who is extremely active on tumblr, at least prior to Elon used to be extremely active on twitter, and would regularly drop into discussions of their works. Other notable examples (albeit less active) off the top of my head include James S.A. Corey (Daniel Abraham and Ty Frank) and Andy Weir.
throwaway81523 3y ago
The movie "Charly" made from this book is good, and it's on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKcWihdna3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKcWihdna3I
hzay 3y ago
I love this story. It's a lot more humble and nuanced than the similar one by Ted Chiang called "Understand".
throwaway81523 3y ago
Musical tribute by Kathy Mar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIg8Mo_EyDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIg8Mo_EyDw
abraxas 3y ago
This is the original short story. I recommend that people read the full book instead or at least read the book first to avoid spoilers. It's at least as good as the short story but expands on the ideas and the story line significantly.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  There is also a terrible 1968 movie called "Charly" that is worth watching just for the motorcycle scenes.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  Does the book add significant new ideas or is it just more explicit about the consequences? I generally love scifi for the ideas much more so than for story and am torn between the book and the short story.
  - abraxas 3y ago
    The main thrust of the story (the main sci-fi component) is contained in both. But it is fleshed out better in the full book. However, neither is a story that contains a ton of novel Sci-Fi ideas. For that I would direct you to stories and books by Greg Egan.
    - ajmurmann 3y ago
      Thanks! Yep, Egan is one of my favorites
  - z3dd 3y ago
    I'd recommend picking the story or novel depending on which you can finish in one go. It's gripping and I feel like breaking it up might take away from the experience.
- nottorp 3y ago
  > It's at least as good as the short story but expands on the ideas and the story line significantly. I don't know about this one (I only read the story) but every time I've read a full novel that was originally a short or novelette it felt dragged out. Even when I didn't know beforehand it was made out of a short. It's sad that the market for shorts is basically gone. Oh... wait! Let's go on a tangent. I used to subscribe to Asimov's on Kindle before they kicked separate subscriptions out and left only Kindle unlimited available... Asimov's went to some dubious solution through some distributor that had their own mobile app, so I didn't renew there. Well guess what: I checked Asimov's again and now they still have the dubious app but it looks like you can subscribe directly on their site and get epubs and pdfs! Guess I wasn't the only one who didn't like the dubious app... There is hope for shorts after all...
throwaway98797 3y ago
this is why i don’t take adderal i dare not glimpse what i can be for to lose it seems like a terrifying fate
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  I have ADHD and I took Adderal for a while and it definitely does not make you smarter. It makes you more focused and there are plusses and minuses to that.
  - bingleboy 3y ago
    My experience with Adderall in my adolescence was that it made me more obnoxious towards my romantic partner and that when we did share affection while i'd want more things like my lips just felt numb. Doing more isn't always better.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      For me, Ritalin came with attitude problems but not Adderall. My sons work better with Ritalin. Meanwhile, my sister has no access to healthcare so anything at all would work better.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > his is why i don’t take adderal ... i dare not glimpse what i can be for to lose it Counterpoint. Each day I'm gifted some hours where I can think more like normal.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  I know a lot of people who are on ADHD medication and they're universally positive about it; nobody says they lost something. What they gained is mental silence so that for the first time in their lives they can think and focus clearly. Also emotional stabilisation.
  - drc500free 3y ago
icedchai 3y ago
I remember reading this in 7th grade for summer reading. Enjoyable book!
mbb70 3y ago
You will experience decline across many axis of your life as you age. An exercise that helps me accept this is to frame my identify in terms of things I will not lose. - I like to hike, but what I really love is to be in nature and surrounded by trees. - I like being funny and quick-witted, but what I really love is to laugh and see other laugh. - I like to dance, but what I really love is to feel the rhythm of music in my body. Obviously some of this is self-delusion (I'd also like to be young, strong and smart) but I find it helps.
klibertp 3y ago
My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I don't want to imagine this. Two follow-ups: "Rainbows End" by V. Vinge. Maybe there'll be a cure. Or "Choosing to Die" by Terry Pratchett. Maybe there's no cure and there won't be. At least, you can decide to go on your own terms, as a person still, not a vegetable yet.
- nanolith 3y ago
  I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxin and or substituting key medication that keeps me alive with a sugar pill. These days, without the right medication, I'd be dead from "natural causes" in a week.
  - irrational 3y ago
    How would you do it if you didn't take any medication? The most medication I've ever needed to take is an aspirin once or twice a year. I'm trying to think what other method I could use in place of substituting mediation.
    - nanolith 3y ago
      Well, I would strongly advocate that such a system be used only after a diagnosis, at which point, you would be placed on medications to slow the progression. At that point, this would be seen as a rather innocuous thing by family members, since it's a machine meant to help you to remember to take medication that you need to help with your dementia. I have considered other machines -- again, as a theoretical exercise -- but ultimately, my decision process was that it had to maintain the plausible deniability to family members that I just died of natural causes. Allowing family to believe that I opted out because I felt that I was a burden would certainly lead to trauma beyond death from natural causes or an accident. I'm a strong believer in having the power of euthanasia. Part of the reason why dementia frightens me is because it would strip me of this agency. I currently suffer from heart failure, and dementia is a comorbidity in the later stages. Being able to choose a dignified end, hopefully in 30-40 years, is important to me.
dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
Daniel Keyes wrote a book in 2000 about writing the book…Algernon, Charlie and I… The ending has the author talking to the scientists doing the research described in Flowers for Algernon. Science wasn’t anymore put off by fiction than the scientists currently resurrecting the woolly mammoth (see novel Jurassic Park)…
js2 3y ago
Apropos essay from a recent segment of This American Life: On Recognition, Caring, and Dementia: https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1548-1387.2008.00036.x https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.111... Radio segment: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/823/the-question-trap/act-three-11 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/823/the-question-trap/act-t...
mlhpdx 3y ago
Like others, this story was very impactful on me (and still is). Over the years, though, my understanding of “intelligence” has evolved and I’m of the opinion today that “it” is several independent (but not unrelated) things: the abilities to learn, to remember, to recall, to connect, to imagine are all manifest in different combinations to different effect. That complexity an nuance shows in people and explains so much.
echelon_musk 3y ago
Parodied by Always Sunny in Philadelphia S09E08 "Flowers for Charlie". Also referenced by the TV show Lost: https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Books_on_Ben%27s_shelf https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Books_on_Ben%27s_shelf
haunter 3y ago
The film Poor Things recently reminded me to Flowers to Algernon a lot
- youngNed 3y ago
  yup.. Flowers of algernon, meets Baribie, meets The Lighthouse ! really great movie
mncharity 3y ago
When creating a business process, designing for resilience in the face of changing staff and resources, can be an objective. Perhaps it should also be prioritized when designing one's own life processes? Consider two elders, one with a long-standing practice of using written notes in their life, and one without. As their memories decline, one compensates with notes, and degrades gracefully. The other, loses life scope far more sharply. And by the time the need becomes pressing, adding such practice becomes difficult. Just something I ran into ~recently.
alganet 3y ago
Makes me wonder if I even know how to read.
msgilligan 3y ago
"I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life." Regardless of one's political opinion of Ronald Reagan, his letter announcing his Alzheimer's diagnosis is relevant and poignant. https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-letter-announcing-his-alzheimers-diagnosis https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-...
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  Nancy Reagan was a pretty decent president [for Ronnie's 2nd term, probably its entirety]. Not my favorite oligarchy figureheads, but definitely not the worst. May they rest in peace.
  - swyx 3y ago
    was she running things? this is the first i am hearing of it
    - kbelder 3y ago
      Popular conspiracy theory.
  - monknomo 3y ago
    Don't you mean Nancy Reagan's astrologer was a pretty decent president?
- IggleSniggle 3y ago
  Careful there... NOTICE WARNING CONCERNING THE REPRODUCTION OF THIS LETTER The Reagan Library is authorized to make copies of this letter available only for the purpose of private study, scholarship or research. This letter may not be reproduced for publication without the expressed consent of the personal representative of Ronald Reagan. For more information contact: Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation 40 Presidential Drive Simi Valley, CA 93065 1-805-522-2977
  - roflyear 3y ago
cooper_ganglia 3y ago
This is one of my favorite books to think about recently. Technology augments us and removes our ability to do things any other way. This can be good, but it can also be bad. AI will be the drug that turns society into Charlie. I hope it will last.
ryukoposting 3y ago
As someone prescribed a medication that affects the mind, I remember this book haunting me for some time after reading it in grade school. Skimming it again today, that same fear returns. Dementia and/or Parkinsons will eventually take my mind from me. After having two grandparents pass away in the last year, I've come to terms with that part. But when? Will it be worse for me?
owendlamb 3y ago
I haven't read this, but I'm a fan of "But Never a Key," a song whose lyrics reference the story: https://dirtpoorrobins.bandcamp.com/track/but-never-a-key-deluxe-edition https://dirtpoorrobins.bandcamp.com/track/but-never-a-key-de... https://open.spotify.com/track/5NXt7fGhxFGfU6h1m9x06A https://open.spotify.com/track/5NXt7fGhxFGfU6h1m9x06A https://youtu.be/IFR06LNqJVs https://youtu.be/IFR06LNqJVs The album it's on (Deadhorse, by Dirt Poor Robins) is also excellent if you like apocalyptic cinematic rock with a sci-fi radio drama vibe.
iamkoch 3y ago
My absolute favourite book.
dang 3y ago
Related: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 - June 2022 (207 comments)
ProllyInfamous 3y ago
Daniel Hayes' only other published book is a non-fiction biography of Billy Milligan, a free man who walks among us, responsible for multiple murders; Billy's multiple personalities were neat to explore, particularly his alter-ego "David, the Keeper of Hate" [I can relate]. ---- Algernon's funeral literally made me cry the first time reading, and still ruminates fumy tears to this day.
apeescape 3y ago
I loved this book when I read it the first time, really touching. The theme most personal to me was that the brainier you are, the lonelier you get.
fallinditch 3y ago
Check out the 6 album cycle that depicts the gradual degradation of dementia: Everywhere at the end of time by The Caretaker. A brilliantly imaginative work. https://youtu.be/wJWksPWDKOc https://youtu.be/wJWksPWDKOc Chatgpt: This ambitious project was released in stages (or "stages") from 2016 to 2019, across six albums, each representing a different phase of dementia. Through his distinctive use of manipulated pre-World War II ballroom music, The Caretaker, aka Leyland Kirby, explores the progression of the disease, from subtle early signs to the total disintegration of memory and understanding. The work is both an artistic exploration and an empathetic representation of the condition's impact on the human mind and memory.
taeric 3y ago
I can't underline enough how much this book impacted me. In ways that I'm fairly confident I do not understand. I certainly didn't understand the book when I was a kid, but it still stuck with me. I think it was my first real exposure to the trope of people being thoughtlessly callous to people on presumed worthiness.
anotherevan 3y ago
Many years ago now I saw a stage play based on this book. I went in with a few reservations but was pleasantly surprised with how good it was.
oldstrangers 3y ago
I own a copy of the April 1959 issue of The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction when this first appeared in print.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

379 points by xNeil 3y ago

Pwntheon 3y ago

What's the context here? This is not the whole book I think?

throw_away_8080 3y ago
Originally it was just a short story. The book was published later.
- Damogran6 3y ago
  And there was an educational version, I read it in junior high. Read the full version in Highschool (not as part of a class).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

I think FfA is a bigger part of our culture than we realize. I use it to describe the 12 hours between waking and adderall wearing off and most people track (a non-frivolous comparison).

badcppdev 3y ago
Sorry can you elaborate or provide a link to what you're alluding to? Is Adderall generally considered an intelligence booster?
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Is Adderall generally considered an intelligence booster? I'd say it boosts ability to utilize cognition. For me it thins brain fog and clarifies what I can see on the other side. With it, I can reason to the point where learning and understanding happens. For a period of time. Most days.

stanac 3y ago

I am currently reading the book (halfway trough) so I am not going to read the paper out of the fear of spoilers. I just want to recommend the book and say that the book is incredible, emotional roller coaster like nothing I have read so far.

sorokod 3y ago

I remember reading the story for the first time and my feelings of pity and horror when the protagonist's decline began. With lifespans increasing, many of us will have Charlie's experience.

xNeil 3y ago
It is quite the impactful story. Saw it under a Twitter (X) thread on IQ and orders of thinking - worth the read.
techwizrd 3y ago
We read this aloud together in grade school. I skipped ahead and thoroughly regretted it. The class was still in the hopeful portion, and I had to watch them come to the same realization I did. When you're that young, you're used to the idea that you will constantly learn, grow, and expand your horizons. The idea of regression is both real and likely is frightening and motivating. It's truly a story that has stuck with me.
- myth2018 3y ago
  That's an interesting insight. I didn't notice that Charlie's trajectory also works as an allegory for the regular mental decline of the average person
  - sorokod 3y ago
    Charlie's trajectory may be your trajectory, not as an allegory. You may be that average person.
    - mrexroad 3y ago
      s/allegory/analogy/ It may just be a side effect of my dyslexia coping, but I read it as ‘analogy’ until reading your comment. Even then, I’m am pretty sure everyone knew they meant ‘analogy’ and just moved on. It’s okay to point out mistakes, but please be civil when doing so.

throwaway_89282 3y ago

[flagged]

xkbarkar 3y ago
[flagged]
- marliechiller 3y ago
  Can you explain why you think that way? Long covid gives people varying degrees of brainfog and debilitation ranging from simple forgetfulness all the way to being bed bound and needing round the clock care. It seems quite apt to me
  - n4r9 3y ago
    The situations are almost entirely unrelated. COVID is a virus that unintentionally spread and in rare cases causes an ongoing reduction in capacity from one's baseline. FfA has a surgical technique which is applied to single person to raise them above their baseline, and then gradually they fall back to their pre-exisitng baseline. Seems like OP was using a tenuous parallel to score some cheap political or perhaps conspiratorial point.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    I think the OP is mostly there but didn't stick the landing. I use FfA comparatively to describe a cognitive a-b-a trip. But re-titling the story - that might associate the underlying story details as well. Nuance needs some exp (for some of us, lots). Hopefully we're patient.

nicbou 3y ago

This book was a good read

croes 3y ago

Same post two years ago, 210 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692

oven9342 3y ago
[flagged]

roshin 3y ago

Great story, but terrible title. I'm not sure exactly what the point of a title is, but if it's to inform about what the story is, or entice, it does neither.

WJW 3y ago
Many fictional titles explain very little if you have not already read the work. Take "lord of the rings" for example, or "Anna Karenina", or even "the Bible". "Flowers for Algernon" is a fine, memorable title that makes sense in the context of what the story is about.
- arethuza 3y ago
  I consulted an AI to see if it could recommend a better title for "Lord of the Rings" - and (I am not making this up) it suggested "Ringworld"....
  - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
    Do I hear the librarian going "Ook"? Sir Terry must be turning in his grave. Edit: Note -- I confused Ringworld with Discworld, as pointed out by rowyourboat below.
    - rowyourboat 3y ago
      I think you are confusing rings with discs. Larry Niven is the one doing the spinning
      - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
        My apologies. You are correct indeed.
    - zem 3y ago
      to bring this full circle, terry pratchett's early science fiction novel "strata" was largely a parody of "ringworld". not as good as his post-stride-hitting discworld books, but worth a read anyway

Zealotux 3y ago

The first book I couldn't put down and had to read in one sitting. It may be the origin of my fear of mental decline, which is much more horrific than death to me.

the-chitmonger 3y ago
Hard agree - this book inspired a fear in me that led me to seek every possible preventative method to combat dementia or other neurodegenerative diseases. In case anyone wants to see my (admittedly amateur) research, I've listed some things I've found below. - Exercise regularly and mitigate conditions like diabetes, hypertension*, high cholesterol [1] (aerobic exercise seems to be the best for this, likely because it increases cerebral blood flow) - Avoid night shift work/disrupting the circadian rhythm [2] (seems to be linked to poor sleep's impact on cardiovascular health, which has in turn seen a strong link to dementia developing) - Increase your cognitive reserve (math is very commonly mentioned as a way to boost this but I don't think it's the only way) seems to insulate you from the impacts of dementia [3] (this citation isn't a formal paper per se but this statement has been echoed across other articles[4][5]) - Read something regularly [6][7] (I have also seen articles mentioning reciting mantras, but I can't find them at the moment) - Small doses of nicotine [8][9][10] (I am at work right now so I cannot verify whether or not these studies were funded by tobacco companies - maybe take this one with a grain of salt. Additionally, smoking cigarettes have been linked to an increased risk of dementia. It may be better to try patches or lozenges?) * There are studies[11][12][13] that suggest high blood pressure in seniors can lead to an increased risk of dementia or worsened cognitive function for those with dementia. One common guess is that the reduced blood flow to the brain in old age is the primary issue, but it could be another covariate that leads to . Not a concern for most of us on this site (I think) [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258000/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6164904/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6164904/ [3] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-is-cognitive-reserve https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-is-cogniti... [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507991/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507991/ [5] https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/news/building-cognitive-reserve-could-protect-against-memory-and-thinking-decline-even-with-low-childhood-cognition-scores/ https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/news/building-cognitive... [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8482376/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8482376/ [7] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911991/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911991/ [8] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7912116/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7912116/ [9] https://actaneurocomms.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40478-018-0625-y https://actaneurocomms.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s4... [10] https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvement-through-nicotine-dosing-mind https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvemen... [11] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8608286/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8608286/ [12] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2173093 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... [13] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14694027/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14694027/ Edited for markdown

xkbarkar 3y ago

I just finished this book. I felt the author could have done more with Charlies genius stage. Not sure why, that part just felt flat somehow. The rising and the subsequent decline stages were really gripping though. Like he was describing the thought process of a surprised friendly dog. Id give it 4/5. Really good story.

throwaway81523 3y ago
You might like Camp Concentration by Thomas M. Disch. Similar sort of premise but goes further.
- xkbarkar 3y ago
  Thanks for the tip. Looks really interesting. I'll check it out.

bigie35 3y ago

Read the short story just a few weeks ago. It's still one of my favorite. So beautiful, so haunting.

lasermike026 3y ago

This book left me gutted.

api 3y ago

A friend of mine brought this book up when she finally went on ADD medication. At first she was like "wow, I can function!" Then she remembered reading this story and says she always fears the medication no longer working. A classic, and increasingly relevant as we continue to push the limits of improving human performance and fixing sub-optimal neurological phenomena like depression and ADD/ADHD.

hirvi74 3y ago
As someone with ADHD, I have had this discussion with doctors numerous times. Not a single one of them have ever read F4A, but many were aware of the plot at least. I still warn people new to ADHD about the sinister side(s) of medication. One of the issues I learned real quick during the shortage of the past few years is that what ever is "given" can be "taken." I have a decent enough job that provides me a stable life. Nothing to write home about. However, when I was off medication for bits during the shortage, I noticed that my life was built on a house a cards. I managed to create a life that I could not sustain without medication. Everything worked out in the end, but I got a nice glimpse of the what awaited me, and it's a long fall back to rock bottom. It's made me a bit paranoid in the sense that I feel like I have to be overly cautious about financial and occupational decisions (not a bad thing, I suppose). If I were to buy a house with a certain level of income or take on a new role, I need to be certain that in a "worst case scenario" that I can still chew whatever I bit off.
- api 3y ago
  I guess all of humanity is in this condition with regard to modern technology. One solar flare and we re-learn what it’s like to dig in the mud in the cold covered in parasites and then die of plague. Life is layers and layers of fragile.
  - hirvi74 3y ago
    I agree, and I think that is partly my problem to some degree -- a problem that stems from luxury. Modern technology is kind of the root of most of my issues. I could survive like most people because the expectation of sitting in an office for 8+ hours a day would vanish. My deficits might be reduced, nonexistent, and/or potentially beneficial. I guess in some sense, I would imagine I might feel more "capable" in the world of a muddy fight for our survival. Then again, I could just die in childhood from a deep cut. Of course, modern life is too good to give up. Despite its comforts, it's clear modern life benefits some more than others (or any lifestyle for that matter). Thanks for reminding me to be thankful for what I do have. :)

Abhitaneja89 3y ago

[dead]

jjice 3y ago

This story is part of the reason I'd never want to know about where I land intelligence wise compared to other people. No matter the outcome, I don't think it could be good. I it's below average, I'll feel limited. If it's above average, I'll have added pressure of self expectations and maybe arrogance. That's not the case for everyone, but I'm happy where I am currently. Back to the story - the use of grammar and spelling that progress throughout the story is so simple, but such a great way to portray his progress aside from the content of the story.

gmadsen 3y ago
How is that possible to not know? Have you never worked on a team?
- yurishimo 3y ago
  I mean, there is a difference between an informed estimate and knowing for sure. Maybe that person you always work with is not the brightest programmer, but maybe they don't care about it as much as you. People can demonstrate intelligence is many different ways. Plus, if they doesn't want to know, why does it matter? It's their life to live in ignorance. For this specific topic, I don't see any harm in leaving your actual IQ number a mystery for the cosmos.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I don't know how they would know for sure. The result of a test? I'm sure it differs among domains in any case.
  - icedchai 3y ago
    As an 1980's "gifted" kid, believe me, they made sure you knew. IQ tests in 3rd grade, "enrichment" classes 3x a week, taking the SAT in 7th grade for some special program. Later in life, most of these gifted kids were total disappointments. I know I am.
    - throwway120385 3y ago

nottorp 3y ago

Isn't this a grievous act of piracy? Daniel Keyes only died in 2014 so this story should be under The Holy Copyright (r) (tm) until 2089! All repent and praise the Mouse!

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
I was gonna say, I don't think piracy like this is allowed on HN. Of course, piracy and the like is only a thing if someone enforces it, so as long as there's no takedown notices to HN or the site that hosts it there's nothing to do I suppose.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Holy $DEITY, i did the math. Flowers for Algernon was first published in 1959 in story form... this means it will be under copyright for 130 years. Of course this is a masterpiece and isn't likely to get lost... but which copyright holder is going to keep the B and C lists available for legal access for the whole 130 years? And speaking of which, is the story form of Flowers for Algernon available legally anywhere? The lengthened book form yes, probably. But personally I think the original form is better. Thanks Disney.
  - bentley 3y ago
    No, since it was published before the Copyright Act of 1976 took effect, it will be under copyright for 95 years, expiring in 2055.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      In which countries? Didn't the latest global whateveritscalled copyright treaty pick the 75 years after the author's death thing for everything?

dsign 3y ago

Tons of people scared of mental and other forms of decline here. Hey, I got news! It's 2024. We understand a fair deal more of how our biochemistry works. We have more computing power than ever, and it's going to be increasing thanks to the crazy amounts of computing power our latest AIs need. That means that we can understand even more of how our biochemistry works by doing exactly what each drug company is doing: running computer simulations. If your eventual decline scares you, it's unlikely that you can change your outcomes. But not impossible. It's still perfectly rational to find your peace in resignation, but it's not the only option anymore.

cjbgkagh 3y ago
There are a lot of things that can already be done - for me I have ADHD related dopamine dysregulation resulting in brain fog so I take slow acting dopamine reuptake inhibitors in the form of low dose modafinil. I also take strict care of my diet, sleep and other medications and I feel as sharp as ever. And since I'm already on top of it I do hope that I can maintain this into old age. I have a friend and former work colleague in his early 50s that is clearly suffering from a similar worsening ADHD brain fog but I've been unable to convince him to do anything about it. Every time I try he acts as if it's the first time I'm mentioning it. He knows he has memory issues but considers it more of a problem for other people since he is still able to cope within his daily routines. He is very anti-medication and thinks there is nothing really wrong with him. I think some medications and lifestyle changes could clear up his brain fog and bring him back to full mental capacity. I don't think he is past the point of no-return physically but there is no way for me to convince him to try meds, so in effect he's past the point of no-return mentally. It's like watching a slow motion train wreck that is still preventable but all my attempts at preventing it have thus far been ineffectual and likely always will be.
damontal 3y ago
Either way you will certainly decline and eventually die.

keiferski 3y ago

It's interesting to compare this story to the movie Limitless, which has a fairly similar premise, but ends on a positive note. Algernon seems to have more influence, probably because of it is fundamentally a kind of morality tale, but I actually kind of prefer Limitless, [0] as limited as its plot is. There is something motivational about it, which is probably why there are so many YouTube productivity videos with the soundtrack. [1] I get the same feeling from The Last Samurai a book (unrelated to the Tom Cruise movie) by Helen DeWitt, which is about raising a genius child. I don't know what the psychological effect is called, but there does seem to be something significant to the idea that it's inspiring to read about/watch extremely intelligent people flexing their intelligence. 0. The film is based on a book, The Dark Fields, which doesn't seem quite so positive, although I haven't read it. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BRQ9neSrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BRQ9neSrw

trylfthsk 3y ago
Can also recommend the Ted Chiang story Understand [1], which adds in a dash of The Most Dangerous Game. [1] https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40835 https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40835
- keiferski 3y ago
  Ah yes I read that one too and it's another good example.
- javajosh 3y ago
  I love Ted Chiang and that story is a banger. The movies like Limitless, Lucy or Phenomenon don't really take the concept to its conclusions. Limitless posits day trading, or politics, as the highest goal. Lucy goes post human in a silly, fantasy way. Phenomenon was pretty cool except for the telekinesis. But Understand sort of hits all the bases and I really like the thesis that there is an irreducible, existential struggle between Utilitarianism and Aesthetics. And of course, the realization that the protag is actually the bad guy. Not a huge fan of the idea of "programming" another person with engrams and random stuff in the environment, to like, die, but it's more plausible than telekinesis! He also wrote the best, IMHO, time-travel story ever written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_and_the_Alchemist%27s_Gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_and_the_Alchemist.... A gorgeous little tale.

JoeDaDude 3y ago

This was the basis for the film Charly [1] (disclaimer: I've read the story but have not seen the film). [1[]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charly_(1968_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charly_(1968_film)

sampa 3y ago

tear-squeezing teen novel PS When I read it was so fake when the then-genius protagonist (that is on above-human level) finds it oh-so interesting to talk to that woman-professor.

dizhn 3y ago

That twist could be seen coming from a mile away. Years and years of media consumption probably. ("Seinfeld is not funny")

empath-nirvana 3y ago
It's 50 years old and has been parodied and copied many times.
- jabroni_salad 3y ago
  Not only that but the author specifically wanted to write a "classic tragedy". Of course it hits familiar story beats.

eismcc 3y ago

After my class read this book in high school, we wrote the author and he responded. How often does that happen in today’s schools?

TheHypnotist 3y ago
Writing the author or the author responding?
LeafItAlone 3y ago
Probably not often, the author died in 2014.
- Topgamer7 3y ago
  I think he was referring to schools writing to authors. Not this author. Maybe referring to the author responding too.
  - L1fescape 3y ago
    [flagged]
bartvk 3y ago
Amazing huh? Me and my daughter finished this Dutch bedtime story book, and we wrote the artist to to tell him how much we liked his work. We actually received a heartwarming reply back, in which he gracefully accepted the compliment, and wished us well.
CuriousCosmic 3y ago
It depends what the book is. For science fiction (or fantasy) stories like this, it's pretty common. And many are actually pretty active on social media as well. Probably the most well known example is Neil Gaiman who is extremely active on tumblr, at least prior to Elon used to be extremely active on twitter, and would regularly drop into discussions of their works. Other notable examples (albeit less active) off the top of my head include James S.A. Corey (Daniel Abraham and Ty Frank) and Andy Weir.

throwaway81523 3y ago

The movie "Charly" made from this book is good, and it's on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKcWihdna3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKcWihdna3I

hzay 3y ago

I love this story. It's a lot more humble and nuanced than the similar one by Ted Chiang called "Understand".

throwaway81523 3y ago

Musical tribute by Kathy Mar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIg8Mo_EyDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIg8Mo_EyDw

abraxas 3y ago

This is the original short story. I recommend that people read the full book instead or at least read the book first to avoid spoilers. It's at least as good as the short story but expands on the ideas and the story line significantly.

matthewdgreen 3y ago
There is also a terrible 1968 movie called "Charly" that is worth watching just for the motorcycle scenes.
ajmurmann 3y ago
Does the book add significant new ideas or is it just more explicit about the consequences? I generally love scifi for the ideas much more so than for story and am torn between the book and the short story.
- abraxas 3y ago
  The main thrust of the story (the main sci-fi component) is contained in both. But it is fleshed out better in the full book. However, neither is a story that contains a ton of novel Sci-Fi ideas. For that I would direct you to stories and books by Greg Egan.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    Thanks! Yep, Egan is one of my favorites
- z3dd 3y ago
  I'd recommend picking the story or novel depending on which you can finish in one go. It's gripping and I feel like breaking it up might take away from the experience.
nottorp 3y ago
> It's at least as good as the short story but expands on the ideas and the story line significantly. I don't know about this one (I only read the story) but every time I've read a full novel that was originally a short or novelette it felt dragged out. Even when I didn't know beforehand it was made out of a short. It's sad that the market for shorts is basically gone. Oh... wait! Let's go on a tangent. I used to subscribe to Asimov's on Kindle before they kicked separate subscriptions out and left only Kindle unlimited available... Asimov's went to some dubious solution through some distributor that had their own mobile app, so I didn't renew there. Well guess what: I checked Asimov's again and now they still have the dubious app but it looks like you can subscribe directly on their site and get epubs and pdfs! Guess I wasn't the only one who didn't like the dubious app... There is hope for shorts after all...

throwaway98797 3y ago

this is why i don’t take adderal i dare not glimpse what i can be for to lose it seems like a terrifying fate

empath-nirvana 3y ago
I have ADHD and I took Adderal for a while and it definitely does not make you smarter. It makes you more focused and there are plusses and minuses to that.
- bingleboy 3y ago
  My experience with Adderall in my adolescence was that it made me more obnoxious towards my romantic partner and that when we did share affection while i'd want more things like my lips just felt numb. Doing more isn't always better.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    For me, Ritalin came with attitude problems but not Adderall. My sons work better with Ritalin. Meanwhile, my sister has no access to healthcare so anything at all would work better.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> his is why i don’t take adderal ... i dare not glimpse what i can be for to lose it Counterpoint. Each day I'm gifted some hours where I can think more like normal.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
I know a lot of people who are on ADHD medication and they're universally positive about it; nobody says they lost something. What they gained is mental silence so that for the first time in their lives they can think and focus clearly. Also emotional stabilisation.
- drc500free 3y ago

icedchai 3y ago

I remember reading this in 7th grade for summer reading. Enjoyable book!

mbb70 3y ago

You will experience decline across many axis of your life as you age. An exercise that helps me accept this is to frame my identify in terms of things I will not lose. - I like to hike, but what I really love is to be in nature and surrounded by trees. - I like being funny and quick-witted, but what I really love is to laugh and see other laugh. - I like to dance, but what I really love is to feel the rhythm of music in my body. Obviously some of this is self-delusion (I'd also like to be young, strong and smart) but I find it helps.

klibertp 3y ago

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I don't want to imagine this. Two follow-ups: "Rainbows End" by V. Vinge. Maybe there'll be a cure. Or "Choosing to Die" by Terry Pratchett. Maybe there's no cure and there won't be. At least, you can decide to go on your own terms, as a person still, not a vegetable yet.

nanolith 3y ago
I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxin and or substituting key medication that keeps me alive with a sugar pill. These days, without the right medication, I'd be dead from "natural causes" in a week.
- irrational 3y ago
  How would you do it if you didn't take any medication? The most medication I've ever needed to take is an aspirin once or twice a year. I'm trying to think what other method I could use in place of substituting mediation.
  - nanolith 3y ago
    Well, I would strongly advocate that such a system be used only after a diagnosis, at which point, you would be placed on medications to slow the progression. At that point, this would be seen as a rather innocuous thing by family members, since it's a machine meant to help you to remember to take medication that you need to help with your dementia. I have considered other machines -- again, as a theoretical exercise -- but ultimately, my decision process was that it had to maintain the plausible deniability to family members that I just died of natural causes. Allowing family to believe that I opted out because I felt that I was a burden would certainly lead to trauma beyond death from natural causes or an accident. I'm a strong believer in having the power of euthanasia. Part of the reason why dementia frightens me is because it would strip me of this agency. I currently suffer from heart failure, and dementia is a comorbidity in the later stages. Being able to choose a dignified end, hopefully in 30-40 years, is important to me.

dirtyhippiefree 3y ago

Daniel Keyes wrote a book in 2000 about writing the book…Algernon, Charlie and I… The ending has the author talking to the scientists doing the research described in Flowers for Algernon. Science wasn’t anymore put off by fiction than the scientists currently resurrecting the woolly mammoth (see novel Jurassic Park)…

js2 3y ago

Apropos essay from a recent segment of This American Life: On Recognition, Caring, and Dementia: https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1548-1387.2008.00036.x https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.111... Radio segment: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/823/the-question-trap/act-three-11 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/823/the-question-trap/act-t...

mlhpdx 3y ago

Like others, this story was very impactful on me (and still is). Over the years, though, my understanding of “intelligence” has evolved and I’m of the opinion today that “it” is several independent (but not unrelated) things: the abilities to learn, to remember, to recall, to connect, to imagine are all manifest in different combinations to different effect. That complexity an nuance shows in people and explains so much.

echelon_musk 3y ago

Parodied by Always Sunny in Philadelphia S09E08 "Flowers for Charlie". Also referenced by the TV show Lost: https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Books_on_Ben%27s_shelf https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Books_on_Ben%27s_shelf

haunter 3y ago

The film Poor Things recently reminded me to Flowers to Algernon a lot

youngNed 3y ago
yup.. Flowers of algernon, meets Baribie, meets The Lighthouse ! really great movie

mncharity 3y ago

When creating a business process, designing for resilience in the face of changing staff and resources, can be an objective. Perhaps it should also be prioritized when designing one's own life processes? Consider two elders, one with a long-standing practice of using written notes in their life, and one without. As their memories decline, one compensates with notes, and degrades gracefully. The other, loses life scope far more sharply. And by the time the need becomes pressing, adding such practice becomes difficult. Just something I ran into ~recently.

alganet 3y ago

Makes me wonder if I even know how to read.

msgilligan 3y ago

"I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life." Regardless of one's political opinion of Ronald Reagan, his letter announcing his Alzheimer's diagnosis is relevant and poignant. https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-letter-announcing-his-alzheimers-diagnosis https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-...

ProllyInfamous 3y ago
Nancy Reagan was a pretty decent president [for Ronnie's 2nd term, probably its entirety]. Not my favorite oligarchy figureheads, but definitely not the worst. May they rest in peace.
- swyx 3y ago
  was she running things? this is the first i am hearing of it
  - kbelder 3y ago
    Popular conspiracy theory.
- monknomo 3y ago
  Don't you mean Nancy Reagan's astrologer was a pretty decent president?
IggleSniggle 3y ago
Careful there... NOTICE WARNING CONCERNING THE REPRODUCTION OF THIS LETTER The Reagan Library is authorized to make copies of this letter available only for the purpose of private study, scholarship or research. This letter may not be reproduced for publication without the expressed consent of the personal representative of Ronald Reagan. For more information contact: Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation 40 Presidential Drive Simi Valley, CA 93065 1-805-522-2977
- roflyear 3y ago

cooper_ganglia 3y ago

This is one of my favorite books to think about recently. Technology augments us and removes our ability to do things any other way. This can be good, but it can also be bad. AI will be the drug that turns society into Charlie. I hope it will last.

ryukoposting 3y ago

As someone prescribed a medication that affects the mind, I remember this book haunting me for some time after reading it in grade school. Skimming it again today, that same fear returns. Dementia and/or Parkinsons will eventually take my mind from me. After having two grandparents pass away in the last year, I've come to terms with that part. But when? Will it be worse for me?

owendlamb 3y ago

I haven't read this, but I'm a fan of "But Never a Key," a song whose lyrics reference the story: https://dirtpoorrobins.bandcamp.com/track/but-never-a-key-deluxe-edition https://dirtpoorrobins.bandcamp.com/track/but-never-a-key-de... https://open.spotify.com/track/5NXt7fGhxFGfU6h1m9x06A https://open.spotify.com/track/5NXt7fGhxFGfU6h1m9x06A https://youtu.be/IFR06LNqJVs https://youtu.be/IFR06LNqJVs The album it's on (Deadhorse, by Dirt Poor Robins) is also excellent if you like apocalyptic cinematic rock with a sci-fi radio drama vibe.

iamkoch 3y ago

My absolute favourite book.

dang 3y ago

Related: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 - June 2022 (207 comments)

ProllyInfamous 3y ago

Daniel Hayes' only other published book is a non-fiction biography of Billy Milligan, a free man who walks among us, responsible for multiple murders; Billy's multiple personalities were neat to explore, particularly his alter-ego "David, the Keeper of Hate" [I can relate]. ---- Algernon's funeral literally made me cry the first time reading, and still ruminates fumy tears to this day.

apeescape 3y ago

I loved this book when I read it the first time, really touching. The theme most personal to me was that the brainier you are, the lonelier you get.

fallinditch 3y ago

Check out the 6 album cycle that depicts the gradual degradation of dementia: Everywhere at the end of time by The Caretaker. A brilliantly imaginative work. https://youtu.be/wJWksPWDKOc https://youtu.be/wJWksPWDKOc Chatgpt: This ambitious project was released in stages (or "stages") from 2016 to 2019, across six albums, each representing a different phase of dementia. Through his distinctive use of manipulated pre-World War II ballroom music, The Caretaker, aka Leyland Kirby, explores the progression of the disease, from subtle early signs to the total disintegration of memory and understanding. The work is both an artistic exploration and an empathetic representation of the condition's impact on the human mind and memory.

taeric 3y ago

I can't underline enough how much this book impacted me. In ways that I'm fairly confident I do not understand. I certainly didn't understand the book when I was a kid, but it still stuck with me. I think it was my first real exposure to the trope of people being thoughtlessly callous to people on presumed worthiness.

anotherevan 3y ago

Many years ago now I saw a stage play based on this book. I went in with a few reservations but was pleasantly surprised with how good it was.

oldstrangers 3y ago

I own a copy of the April 1959 issue of The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction when this first appeared in print.

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