6 ms·

Staff Speak Out at Turing Institute due to four men being given top jobs

18 points by senda 3y ago

BigParm 3y ago
Maybe merit isn’t everything. Maybe a weaker player with a different perspective makes the team stronger than would another homogenous superstar. I just don’t know.
- CWuestefeld 3y ago
  Surely a person's sex or race isn't the most significant factor that would give someone a different perspective. Why is it that we must seek alternatives primarily along the sex and race axes, at the exact same time that we're being told that differences in those dimensions don't matter? If we want different perspectives, then let's look for people that are urban vs suburban, religious vs atheist, short vs tall, active vs sedentary, sports fans vs those who would rather read a book, listeners of classical music vs country, those who served in the military vs pacifists, and so on. Why tell ourselves that the most important "diversity" we need is to be found in sex/gender and race?
  - Ajay-p 3y ago
    It's easier to look at sex and race, especially when you view those of a certain sex or race as victims. For many, it does not matter what accomplishments you make, how hard you work, or your credentials, it only matters how it appears to others. Too many men: Sexist. Too many whites: racist.
joemazerino 3y ago
Was a female passed up even though she was top of the pick?
gwervc 3y ago
It's quite incredible how hating men have been not only normalized but institutionalized in the last few years. Changing a single word in that kind of headlines would give a strong 1933 vibe.
- alxjrvs 3y ago
  Sure, but that is denying the reality of the moment / endorsing the fantasies of the past. I fail to see how pointing out the actual reality of hiring statistics correlates at all the fascist conspiracy theory. This is not "hating men".
  - lm28469 3y ago
    It depends which statistics we're talking about, for example talking about crime stats is a big no-no no matter which angle you take, but talking about hiring stats without any background information nor nuance will get you a shiny social justice medal
- chabes 3y ago
  The article is more than the how you personally interpreted (or were triggered by) the wording of the headline
- Ajay-p 3y ago
  It's not so much about hating men as it is an increase in people claiming they are a victim of something. Being a victim gives them feelings of power and control, even if it is completely hogwash.
moi2388 3y ago
And as usual no data other than opinions. How many women did they have with the same qualifications as the men? How many women work the same amount of hours? How many women even applied for the job? My local kindergarten also only has women. Guess why?
- jessekv 3y ago
  Could it be because the lack of representation in leadership roles is self-perpetuating?
  - bavell 3y ago
    That's a stretch! It's common knowledge women are more nurturing than men, especially with regards to children.
    - jessekv 3y ago
      Plenty of men are also nurturing by nature. I am not, unfortunately. It is a trait I am working to cultivate in myself in order to perform my leadership roles more effectively.
      - hagbard_c 3y ago
        Plenty, yes, but more women than men on average. There's plenty of women who are interested in fiddling with engines and hardware and things that go boom but on average more men than women are interested in such things. This does not sit well with some ideologues who insist that preferences are 100% nurture instead of nature in combination with nurture but that should be their problem, not ours. Unfortunately many of those ideologues have made it to positions in society where they have the power to make their problem ours as well which leads to situations like these. The solution is clear: get the ideologues out of positions of power and replace them with more level-headed people. Speak up when confronted with or by such ideologues, don't be cowed by the labels they're wont to attach to detractors as they're only words which have been appropriated with their original meaning twisted or lost to suit the ideologue's purposes. The ideologues gain their power from the strength of those words which means that power can be taken away from them as well through the effort of taking back the language they misappropriated.
anon291 3y ago
Vicious cycle: 1. There is a relatively stable job opening with diversity requirements. The 'diverse' hire is made. 2. The 'non-diverse' candidates for the position end up not getting the job. While seemingly inconsequential on its own, this has the effect of 'non-diverse' candidates being over-represented among those who are overqualified for their current position. 3. In order to get a more suitable position for their abilities, these 'non-diverse' candidates are forced to work on higher risk projects, maybe lacking the same prestige, as the position in (1). 4. Due to their ability, these riskier projects take off. Now the risk was higher, so the reward is commensurately higher. 5. As these projects mature and grow and attract more money, they start to have job openings similar to 1. 6. Charges of discrimination are made when only 'non-diverse' candidates seemed to have benefited from this novel technology. And likely those same candidates in 2 are now forced out as more jobs like 1 are opened up in the projects they grew in 4. Then the start at step 3 again. Personally, I have absolutely seen this play out with AI. I was in the industry before all the LLM / NVDA buzz. Many people thought it was crazy, a pipe dream, etc. Now... everyone wants in and is retconning their stories to talk about how they always supported it. Give me a break.
- rticesterp 3y ago
  This reflects my career path as well. I worked for a large company and I was impacted by Step 2. Left for a startup (step 3), startup takes off with a competing technology. Fast forward a couple of years, the large company drops technology I was working in at the time as they couldn't compete with the startup (step 4). Startup is now a leader in that technology and is now a more attractive workpalce than the large company. There are now complaints that the leaders with tenure are non-diverse at the startup. We've reached stage 5.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
snehk 3y ago
I've read the whole thing but the fact that the argument isn't "more qualified female candidates were overlooked" tells me the Institute made the correct decision.

18 points by senda 3y ago

Maybe merit isn’t everything. Maybe a weaker player with a different perspective makes the team stronger than would another homogenous superstar. I just don’t know.

CWuestefeld 3y ago
Surely a person's sex or race isn't the most significant factor that would give someone a different perspective. Why is it that we must seek alternatives primarily along the sex and race axes, at the exact same time that we're being told that differences in those dimensions don't matter? If we want different perspectives, then let's look for people that are urban vs suburban, religious vs atheist, short vs tall, active vs sedentary, sports fans vs those who would rather read a book, listeners of classical music vs country, those who served in the military vs pacifists, and so on. Why tell ourselves that the most important "diversity" we need is to be found in sex/gender and race?
- Ajay-p 3y ago
  It's easier to look at sex and race, especially when you view those of a certain sex or race as victims. For many, it does not matter what accomplishments you make, how hard you work, or your credentials, it only matters how it appears to others. Too many men: Sexist. Too many whites: racist.

joemazerino 3y ago

Was a female passed up even though she was top of the pick?

gwervc 3y ago

It's quite incredible how hating men have been not only normalized but institutionalized in the last few years. Changing a single word in that kind of headlines would give a strong 1933 vibe.

alxjrvs 3y ago
Sure, but that is denying the reality of the moment / endorsing the fantasies of the past. I fail to see how pointing out the actual reality of hiring statistics correlates at all the fascist conspiracy theory. This is not "hating men".
- lm28469 3y ago
  It depends which statistics we're talking about, for example talking about crime stats is a big no-no no matter which angle you take, but talking about hiring stats without any background information nor nuance will get you a shiny social justice medal
chabes 3y ago
The article is more than the how you personally interpreted (or were triggered by) the wording of the headline
Ajay-p 3y ago
It's not so much about hating men as it is an increase in people claiming they are a victim of something. Being a victim gives them feelings of power and control, even if it is completely hogwash.

moi2388 3y ago

And as usual no data other than opinions. How many women did they have with the same qualifications as the men? How many women work the same amount of hours? How many women even applied for the job? My local kindergarten also only has women. Guess why?

jessekv 3y ago
Could it be because the lack of representation in leadership roles is self-perpetuating?
- bavell 3y ago
  That's a stretch! It's common knowledge women are more nurturing than men, especially with regards to children.
  - jessekv 3y ago
    Plenty of men are also nurturing by nature. I am not, unfortunately. It is a trait I am working to cultivate in myself in order to perform my leadership roles more effectively.
    - hagbard_c 3y ago
      Plenty, yes, but more women than men on average. There's plenty of women who are interested in fiddling with engines and hardware and things that go boom but on average more men than women are interested in such things. This does not sit well with some ideologues who insist that preferences are 100% nurture instead of nature in combination with nurture but that should be their problem, not ours. Unfortunately many of those ideologues have made it to positions in society where they have the power to make their problem ours as well which leads to situations like these. The solution is clear: get the ideologues out of positions of power and replace them with more level-headed people. Speak up when confronted with or by such ideologues, don't be cowed by the labels they're wont to attach to detractors as they're only words which have been appropriated with their original meaning twisted or lost to suit the ideologue's purposes. The ideologues gain their power from the strength of those words which means that power can be taken away from them as well through the effort of taking back the language they misappropriated.

anon291 3y ago

Vicious cycle: 1. There is a relatively stable job opening with diversity requirements. The 'diverse' hire is made. 2. The 'non-diverse' candidates for the position end up not getting the job. While seemingly inconsequential on its own, this has the effect of 'non-diverse' candidates being over-represented among those who are overqualified for their current position. 3. In order to get a more suitable position for their abilities, these 'non-diverse' candidates are forced to work on higher risk projects, maybe lacking the same prestige, as the position in (1). 4. Due to their ability, these riskier projects take off. Now the risk was higher, so the reward is commensurately higher. 5. As these projects mature and grow and attract more money, they start to have job openings similar to 1. 6. Charges of discrimination are made when only 'non-diverse' candidates seemed to have benefited from this novel technology. And likely those same candidates in 2 are now forced out as more jobs like 1 are opened up in the projects they grew in 4. Then the start at step 3 again. Personally, I have absolutely seen this play out with AI. I was in the industry before all the LLM / NVDA buzz. Many people thought it was crazy, a pipe dream, etc. Now... everyone wants in and is retconning their stories to talk about how they always supported it. Give me a break.

rticesterp 3y ago
This reflects my career path as well. I worked for a large company and I was impacted by Step 2. Left for a startup (step 3), startup takes off with a competing technology. Fast forward a couple of years, the large company drops technology I was working in at the time as they couldn't compete with the startup (step 4). Startup is now a leader in that technology and is now a more attractive workpalce than the large company. There are now complaints that the leaders with tenure are non-diverse at the startup. We've reached stage 5.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

snehk 3y ago

I've read the whole thing but the fact that the argument isn't "more qualified female candidates were overlooked" tells me the Institute made the correct decision.