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Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was reveale

by gataca 3y ago

Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was revealed their own rocket bombed it the casualty numbers dropped 10-fold, war isn’t arithmetic. The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists but doesn’t allow civilians to shelter, it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way but Israel should continue until Hamas is defeated like Germany was.

jay-barronville 3y ago
> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas […] This is an unserious argument. 1. The numbers come from Gaza’s Ministry of Health, which is indeed “controlled” by Hamas since Hamas is their governing entity. 2. The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers. In fact, it’s quite the opposite: The Ministry’s numbers have held up to scrutiny in ALL of the previous wars (including scrutiny from Israel) [0]. 3. The Biden Administration has corroborated the numbers. 4. Israel hasn’t denied the numbers. In fact, in one report from the IDF a couple months ago, they corroborated the Ministry’s numbers at the time. 5. The same silly argument could be made to dismiss just about anything coming from Israel given their documented history of lying and even manipulating our (American) media, from lies about beheaded babies [1] to pushing propaganda via U.S. media outlets like the New York Times [2]. > The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. […] This is just a whataboutism and another unserious argument. One evil act doesn’t justify another evil act. This is as serious of an argument as someone trying to justify slavery in 2024 by pointing to America’s history with slavery. [0]: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-mini... [1]: https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-babies-false https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-ba... [2]: https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7 https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schw...
- gataca 3y ago
  > The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers This is laughable. They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. You are either hopelessly biased and unserious or uninformed.
  - jay-barronville 3y ago
    > They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. Please source your claim as I did mine.
    - gataca 3y ago
      Here you go: "However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket. Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely." https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...
  - Qem 3y ago
    > They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people The claims appear to be founded: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disinformation-al-ahli-hospital https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disi...
    - gataca 3y ago
      Even Human Rights Watch (anti-israel propaganda outlet at this point) has said it was a Palestinian rocket: "However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket. Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely." https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...
GordonS 3y ago
> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas The UN and Lancet [0] believe the numbers are credible. Let's not forget there are likely 10k+ civilians still burried under rubble too. > Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists Come on, you are not commenting in good faith. There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place, Hamas have staunchly denied it, and from what returning hostages have said it seems incredibly unlikely. There is however an abundance of evidence that Israel is trying to use rape as attrocity propaganda. > it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way This is absolutely absurd - it's like telling a domestic violence victim it's their own fault. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  What happened to “believe women?” You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened? “UN team says rape, gang rape likely occurred during Hamas attack on Israel” UN: “The mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity.” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-gang-rape-likely-occurred-during-hamas-attack-israel-2024-03-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-... https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf#page18 https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploa...
  - incognos 3y ago
    Where is your outrage for the ongoing rapes prior to october 7th and continuing to this day. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-isra...)
Qem 3y ago
[flagged]
- tptacek 3y ago
  That's not what "debunking" means. It's an article that disputes the current consensus that an errant rocket from Gaza exploded in the hospital. Having the debate is fine (if it's on topic), but preemptively declaring the debate over, misrepresenting the consensus on the issue, and accusing those asserting the current consensus of "misinformation" is disingenuous, and you can't do that and still be civil.
- gataca 3y ago
  [flagged]
incognos 3y ago
For the record, it was debunked that it was a Hamas rocket as none of them had that potential yield and still do not. The ordinance for that explosion only had one provenance: the United States.
- jay-barronville 3y ago
  I asked them to source their claim [0]. Let’s see if they can do it. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39628938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39628938
YavuzKrgl 3y ago
It turned out that the footage presented by israel as "a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad fell on the hospital" was a lie.[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0
- gryzzly 3y ago
  TRT is a Turkish public broadcast service. Erdogan openly supports Hamas.

by gataca 3y ago

jay-barronville 3y ago

> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas […] This is an unserious argument. 1. The numbers come from Gaza’s Ministry of Health, which is indeed “controlled” by Hamas since Hamas is their governing entity. 2. The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers. In fact, it’s quite the opposite: The Ministry’s numbers have held up to scrutiny in ALL of the previous wars (including scrutiny from Israel) [0]. 3. The Biden Administration has corroborated the numbers. 4. Israel hasn’t denied the numbers. In fact, in one report from the IDF a couple months ago, they corroborated the Ministry’s numbers at the time. 5. The same silly argument could be made to dismiss just about anything coming from Israel given their documented history of lying and even manipulating our (American) media, from lies about beheaded babies [1] to pushing propaganda via U.S. media outlets like the New York Times [2]. > The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. […] This is just a whataboutism and another unserious argument. One evil act doesn’t justify another evil act. This is as serious of an argument as someone trying to justify slavery in 2024 by pointing to America’s history with slavery. [0]: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-mini... [1]: https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-babies-false https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-ba... [2]: https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7 https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schw...

gataca 3y ago
> The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers This is laughable. They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. You are either hopelessly biased and unserious or uninformed.
- jay-barronville 3y ago
  > They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. Please source your claim as I did mine.
  - gataca 3y ago
    Here you go: "However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket. Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely." https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...
- Qem 3y ago
  > They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people The claims appear to be founded: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disinformation-al-ahli-hospital https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disi...
  - gataca 3y ago
    Even Human Rights Watch (anti-israel propaganda outlet at this point) has said it was a Palestinian rocket: "However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket. Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely." https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...

GordonS 3y ago

> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas The UN and Lancet [0] believe the numbers are credible. Let's not forget there are likely 10k+ civilians still burried under rubble too. > Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists Come on, you are not commenting in good faith. There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place, Hamas have staunchly denied it, and from what returning hostages have said it seems incredibly unlikely. There is however an abundance of evidence that Israel is trying to use rape as attrocity propaganda. > it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way This is absolutely absurd - it's like telling a domestic violence victim it's their own fault. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

reducesuffering 3y ago
What happened to “believe women?” You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened? “UN team says rape, gang rape likely occurred during Hamas attack on Israel” UN: “The mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity.” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-gang-rape-likely-occurred-during-hamas-attack-israel-2024-03-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-... https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf#page18 https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploa...
- incognos 3y ago
  Where is your outrage for the ongoing rapes prior to october 7th and continuing to this day. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-isra...)

Qem 3y ago

[flagged]

tptacek 3y ago
That's not what "debunking" means. It's an article that disputes the current consensus that an errant rocket from Gaza exploded in the hospital. Having the debate is fine (if it's on topic), but preemptively declaring the debate over, misrepresenting the consensus on the issue, and accusing those asserting the current consensus of "misinformation" is disingenuous, and you can't do that and still be civil.
gataca 3y ago
[flagged]

incognos 3y ago

For the record, it was debunked that it was a Hamas rocket as none of them had that potential yield and still do not. The ordinance for that explosion only had one provenance: the United States.

jay-barronville 3y ago
I asked them to source their claim [0]. Let’s see if they can do it. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39628938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39628938

YavuzKrgl 3y ago

It turned out that the footage presented by israel as "a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad fell on the hospital" was a lie.[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0

gryzzly 3y ago
TRT is a Turkish public broadcast service. Erdogan openly supports Hamas.