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> A significant portion of ASML's workforce, about 40%, consists of labor migrants. The company has expressed concerns about the potential tightening of labor m

> A significant portion of ASML's workforce, about 40%, consists of labor migrants. The company has expressed concerns about the potential tightening of labor migration rules by a new right-wing cabinet, which could hinder its ability to hire new personnel and grow

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
I love it when right wing political muppets are being shut down by innovative companies. What a lot of xenofobic pundits from wealthy counties who vote right wing don't understand, is that a lot of their economic growth they saw in the last decade or two came BECAUSE of migration. Would be curious if they're ready to put their money where their mouth is, as in, accept economic contraction for the sake of "getting rid of foreigners".
- beretguy 3y ago
  Why is migration considered a good thing? Migrants are taking away jobs from locals. Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live.
  - notanormalnerd 3y ago
    The EU overall is in a less than reproduction rate. With less than two kinds per woman on average. With the boomer generation going into pension now there are a lot of jobs left unassigned. At the same time people are getting better educated and strive for higher jobs. The notion that immigrants take away jobs is bullshit that has been fed to you by exactly those right wing shills. It's not the 2000nds anymore. We need so many workers l, especially in those low wage/low skill jobs. At the same time employing an immigrant is much harder cultural wise that every employer probably picks a local over a immigrant when having the choice. But feel free to talk to any recruiter.
    - vivekd 3y ago
      They said that about Canada too. As a result we had a surge in immigration that led to huge jumps in youth unemployment. If companies are so desperate for workers why are wages stagnant and why are so many people getting ghosted during job interviews and why does it take so many applications to find a job. This doesn't add up. We have record numbers of women in the workforce basically doubling the number of workers compared to the 50s. But apparently we can't find workers. And now we're right wing racists because we object to you bringing in people from low income countries to work low skill entry level positions in a proposed system that a little too closely resembles colonial era slave trade. Meanwhile there's a huge strain on housing prices and infrastructure and social services as we struggle to absorb this influx - why so corporations can have higher profit margins. So GDP can get a little higher. And these clueless out of touch elites wonder why people are moving to the far right.
      - ako 3y ago
        Prices are dictated by a global purchasing market. This means that salaries cannot grow because otherwise companies wouldn’t make profit, as they have to compete with products built by Chinese companies with much lower salaries.
        vivekd 3y ago
        This sounds like a race to the bottom where we keep demanding workers accept less and less to compete with poorer and poorer nations - while simultaneously ignoring that economic powerhouses like the US who pay workers relatively well
        ako 3y ago
        Globalization is exactly that, until there’s global equality of salaries. We’re seeing it at the moment where Chinese cars are taking over the market because they’re better priced than European or American alternatives. To compete they have to move production to Chinese, see for example the large production of teslas in china, or they replace humans by robots… The biggest problem with free markets is that it’s not really a sustainable system in the sense that with a certain income you can’t afford the things you need provided by people enjoying similar incomes. Hence we need to mass import product from lower income countries, and even local labor needs to be imported from lower income countries. Cleaners from low income countries, construction workers from low income countries.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Migration in general maybe not so much because then it's mostly just used as wage suppression, but skilled migration in niche fields like the one ASML operates in is absolutely necessary since a small county like NL can't produce all the specialized labor a large and growing company like ASML in a short timespan to satisfy their massive order books. Training a skilled semiconductor engineer can take 6+ years but you need them right fucking now. You can't compress 6 years of education and training experience in an instant no matter how much you were to pay for the locals. TSMC and Intel won't want to wait 6 years. They might as well wait for Nikon and Canon to solve EUV.
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Wouldn't they be better off filling most positions locally even if quantity dips because long term those skills transfer rathering then hoping a migrant becomes a local? 40% is a high number required.
      - adriancr 3y ago
        For R&D it's usually winner take all, if you fall behind as a company then you might just end up irrelevant.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        The realities of the world never work on "wouldn't it be better if...". Yes it would be better if there was no war in Ukraine, no war in Gaza, no COVID, no economic downturn with inflation, etc. but the world doesn't function on our wishes, and companies operate on quarterly profits and can't wait for the world to become as they wish.
        ipaddr 3y ago
        Long term they would be in a better position. Short term vs long term thinking. The war piece is more complex. Ukraine war is about NATO expanding into Russian influence zones. Without that war we would be looking at a war in a different place, maybe even a nuclear war fighting over the same thing. The Gaza war is a proxy for a Iran/Israel war. COVID become a proxy war for a power grab by health officials. They still want countries to handover power over citizen to the who by the end of this month.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live This is a valid position. But naturally, those jobs won’t be of the high-value globally-connected variety. Plenty of agricultural communities do okay; they just aren’t going to be a good place for an ASML to be based.
  - SR2Z 3y ago
    Migrants more often than not create jobs for locals (just not uneducated locals, who get mad when uneducated migrants are willing to do the same work for less money).
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    > Why is migration considered a good thing? Migrants are taking away jobs from locals. This is just not true generally. Migrants usually barely make up for natality rate reduction. Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do. Those with high level of skills usually fill up markets that are in dire need of those skills anyway or can become entrepreneurs themselves. > Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live. I am a migrant, my SO is a migrant. Neither of us would have been as happy as we are had we stayed in our respective countries, and I am pretty sure given the feedback we get the companies we are working for wouldn't have been happier without us. The irony is as a white, european guy, I am generally never targeted as the migrant who is taking away jobs from locals while my SO, as darker skinned migrant from a country in latin america still considered a developing country, is facing racism and is considered as a migrant stealing job by people having similar views as yours. Yet we are both working and contributing to the country we are living in the same way. Let's face it, these kind of opinions is never about locals missing jobs but xenophoby.
    - beretguy 3y ago
      > Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do. Most likely because those low skilled jobs don’t pay enough.
PeterStuer 3y ago
Not informed about NL politics, but would any government be hindering high skilled legal immigration? In my experience this type of migration is highly encouraged, regardless of the left/right leanings of a government.
- PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
  Yes, as an example the UK government just made it harder for foreign caregivers to migrate to the UK, despite the fact there's a severe shortage. https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1759597950353752091?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1759597950353752091... Less migrants, or at least looking like you're trying to have less, tries to get the populist vote.
  - collyw 3y ago
    How many migrants need caring?
- jessekv 3y ago
  Lately the Netherlands is revising tax laws that are disproportionately advantageous to those with higher incomes. Tax breaks for well-paid foreigners are difficult to justify in this political climate, and have been reduced substantially in recent years.
- weweersdfsd 3y ago
  Definitely some are. In Finland the situation is basically such that if you cross the border from Russia illegally, you can just claim asylum and stay here for a long time, especially if your home country refuses to take you back against your will (which requires a police escort and lots of bureaucracy anyway). Meanwhile legal migrant workers, including skilled labor, are now subjected to tightened employment restrictions. If you lose your job and don't start in a new one within six months (original plan was three), you'll have to leave. This may make sense for low-skilled labour (of which there is no real shortage anyway), but IMO not for highly trained specialists that are in demand. Many EU countries are only good at attracting exactly the kind of migration that isn't beneficial to economy.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

I love it when right wing political muppets are being shut down by innovative companies. What a lot of xenofobic pundits from wealthy counties who vote right wing don't understand, is that a lot of their economic growth they saw in the last decade or two came BECAUSE of migration. Would be curious if they're ready to put their money where their mouth is, as in, accept economic contraction for the sake of "getting rid of foreigners".

beretguy 3y ago
Why is migration considered a good thing? Migrants are taking away jobs from locals. Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live.
- notanormalnerd 3y ago
  The EU overall is in a less than reproduction rate. With less than two kinds per woman on average. With the boomer generation going into pension now there are a lot of jobs left unassigned. At the same time people are getting better educated and strive for higher jobs. The notion that immigrants take away jobs is bullshit that has been fed to you by exactly those right wing shills. It's not the 2000nds anymore. We need so many workers l, especially in those low wage/low skill jobs. At the same time employing an immigrant is much harder cultural wise that every employer probably picks a local over a immigrant when having the choice. But feel free to talk to any recruiter.
  - vivekd 3y ago
    They said that about Canada too. As a result we had a surge in immigration that led to huge jumps in youth unemployment. If companies are so desperate for workers why are wages stagnant and why are so many people getting ghosted during job interviews and why does it take so many applications to find a job. This doesn't add up. We have record numbers of women in the workforce basically doubling the number of workers compared to the 50s. But apparently we can't find workers. And now we're right wing racists because we object to you bringing in people from low income countries to work low skill entry level positions in a proposed system that a little too closely resembles colonial era slave trade. Meanwhile there's a huge strain on housing prices and infrastructure and social services as we struggle to absorb this influx - why so corporations can have higher profit margins. So GDP can get a little higher. And these clueless out of touch elites wonder why people are moving to the far right.
    - ako 3y ago
      Prices are dictated by a global purchasing market. This means that salaries cannot grow because otherwise companies wouldn’t make profit, as they have to compete with products built by Chinese companies with much lower salaries.
      - vivekd 3y ago
        This sounds like a race to the bottom where we keep demanding workers accept less and less to compete with poorer and poorer nations - while simultaneously ignoring that economic powerhouses like the US who pay workers relatively well
        ako 3y ago
        Globalization is exactly that, until there’s global equality of salaries. We’re seeing it at the moment where Chinese cars are taking over the market because they’re better priced than European or American alternatives. To compete they have to move production to Chinese, see for example the large production of teslas in china, or they replace humans by robots… The biggest problem with free markets is that it’s not really a sustainable system in the sense that with a certain income you can’t afford the things you need provided by people enjoying similar incomes. Hence we need to mass import product from lower income countries, and even local labor needs to be imported from lower income countries. Cleaners from low income countries, construction workers from low income countries.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Migration in general maybe not so much because then it's mostly just used as wage suppression, but skilled migration in niche fields like the one ASML operates in is absolutely necessary since a small county like NL can't produce all the specialized labor a large and growing company like ASML in a short timespan to satisfy their massive order books. Training a skilled semiconductor engineer can take 6+ years but you need them right fucking now. You can't compress 6 years of education and training experience in an instant no matter how much you were to pay for the locals. TSMC and Intel won't want to wait 6 years. They might as well wait for Nikon and Canon to solve EUV.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Wouldn't they be better off filling most positions locally even if quantity dips because long term those skills transfer rathering then hoping a migrant becomes a local? 40% is a high number required.
    - adriancr 3y ago
      For R&D it's usually winner take all, if you fall behind as a company then you might just end up irrelevant.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      The realities of the world never work on "wouldn't it be better if...". Yes it would be better if there was no war in Ukraine, no war in Gaza, no COVID, no economic downturn with inflation, etc. but the world doesn't function on our wishes, and companies operate on quarterly profits and can't wait for the world to become as they wish.
      - ipaddr 3y ago
        Long term they would be in a better position. Short term vs long term thinking. The war piece is more complex. Ukraine war is about NATO expanding into Russian influence zones. Without that war we would be looking at a war in a different place, maybe even a nuclear war fighting over the same thing. The Gaza war is a proxy for a Iran/Israel war. COVID become a proxy war for a power grab by health officials. They still want countries to handover power over citizen to the who by the end of this month.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live This is a valid position. But naturally, those jobs won’t be of the high-value globally-connected variety. Plenty of agricultural communities do okay; they just aren’t going to be a good place for an ASML to be based.
- SR2Z 3y ago
  Migrants more often than not create jobs for locals (just not uneducated locals, who get mad when uneducated migrants are willing to do the same work for less money).
- prmoustache 3y ago
  > Why is migration considered a good thing? Migrants are taking away jobs from locals. This is just not true generally. Migrants usually barely make up for natality rate reduction. Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do. Those with high level of skills usually fill up markets that are in dire need of those skills anyway or can become entrepreneurs themselves. > Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live. I am a migrant, my SO is a migrant. Neither of us would have been as happy as we are had we stayed in our respective countries, and I am pretty sure given the feedback we get the companies we are working for wouldn't have been happier without us. The irony is as a white, european guy, I am generally never targeted as the migrant who is taking away jobs from locals while my SO, as darker skinned migrant from a country in latin america still considered a developing country, is facing racism and is considered as a migrant stealing job by people having similar views as yours. Yet we are both working and contributing to the country we are living in the same way. Let's face it, these kind of opinions is never about locals missing jobs but xenophoby.
  - beretguy 3y ago
    > Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do. Most likely because those low skilled jobs don’t pay enough.

PeterStuer 3y ago

Not informed about NL politics, but would any government be hindering high skilled legal immigration? In my experience this type of migration is highly encouraged, regardless of the left/right leanings of a government.

PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
Yes, as an example the UK government just made it harder for foreign caregivers to migrate to the UK, despite the fact there's a severe shortage. https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1759597950353752091?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1759597950353752091... Less migrants, or at least looking like you're trying to have less, tries to get the populist vote.
- collyw 3y ago
  How many migrants need caring?
jessekv 3y ago
Lately the Netherlands is revising tax laws that are disproportionately advantageous to those with higher incomes. Tax breaks for well-paid foreigners are difficult to justify in this political climate, and have been reduced substantially in recent years.
weweersdfsd 3y ago
Definitely some are. In Finland the situation is basically such that if you cross the border from Russia illegally, you can just claim asylum and stay here for a long time, especially if your home country refuses to take you back against your will (which requires a police escort and lots of bureaucracy anyway). Meanwhile legal migrant workers, including skilled labor, are now subjected to tightened employment restrictions. If you lose your job and don't start in a new one within six months (original plan was three), you'll have to leave. This may make sense for low-skilled labour (of which there is no real shortage anyway), but IMO not for highly trained specialists that are in demand. Many EU countries are only good at attracting exactly the kind of migration that isn't beneficial to economy.