5 ms·

You're Always Carrying a Cannon

33 points by phildini 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bombcar 3y ago
“Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.” Dread Pirate Roberts
nuancebydefault 3y ago
Is it really true that in general, a manager can just fire you? Where I work, my manager can report badly about me, but he cannot fire me. Even if the team responsible for hiring/firing concludes they will let me go, they still need to follow the law. E.g. there needs to be documentation of my (mal) functioning and there has to be attemps to improve performance or behavior. Is this only true in Europe maybe?
- azmarks 3y ago
  It depends on the company and their policies. When working at large companies, there is generally a HR department that has to "approve" all firings. This is usually to make sure policies and laws are being followed. At smaller companies in most of the US, a manager can just say bye and you're gone.
- huytersd 3y ago
  I have fired people for insubordination. Specifically public insubordination.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  In the US, it depends on state law, at least to some degree. In some states you can be fired without cause and without recourse; in others you can't. Note well: I am not a labor-law lawyer. There may be some nuances and details here that escape me.
  - lazide 3y ago
    The only non-At will employment state is Montana. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/at-will_employment https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/at-will_employment]
- 121789 3y ago
  in non-unionized jobs in the US, yes this is true for all intents and purposes. it's not very easy in larger corporations, but they can pretty much always make it happen
- phildini 3y ago
  In the US, especially in CA, where so many readers of this site live and work, absolutely. All the policies and procedures are there to, ultimately, protect the company from wrongful termination or discrimination lawsuits. There's not really a govt body that mandates that. (Handwave around: there are some protected activities that the govt cares if you're fired for, and if you can prove you were fired as retaliation then the company is in trouble, but mostly your manager can just fire you)
- marssaxman 3y ago
  > there needs to be documentation of my (mal) functioning and there has to be attemps to improve performance or behavior Many large US companies also use such procedures. Instead of firing you on the spot, your manager puts you through a three-month "performance improvement program", aka PIP, during which the documentation of your inadequate performance and failure to improve is created, and then you are fired.
- p4ul 3y ago
  In the US, most employers roughly follow the guidelines that the Federal government uses [1]. Which is to say, that employment is "at will", and either the employer or employee can terminate the relationship at any time. The obvious caveat is that someone cannot be fired for a reason that would be illegal (e.g., firing someone because of age, gender, religion, etc.). In practice, however, most organizations are extremely risk-averse when it comes to wrongful termination lawsuits. And as such, they'll have a lengthy "performance-improvement plan" (PIP) that can last three to six months and is meant to serve as evidence that an employee's poor performance was the reason for dismissal. There are also, of course, extreme cases where someone can be fired "for cause" when they've committed some kind of egregious violation (e.g., embezzling funds, fraud, corporate espionage). [1.] https://www.usa.gov/termination-for-employers https://www.usa.gov/termination-for-employers
1123581321 3y ago
This is good advice. It doesn’t take many data points, just one or two similar-sounding conversations, to inadvertently establish a pattern that can worry a whole team.
llimos 3y ago
And never ever joke about firing someone. Even if there's some technicality where we 'fire' you and rehire under a different entity, don't start the announcement with 'you're all fired. Ha ha, not really'. The cannon anxiety is real.

33 points by phildini 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bombcar 3y ago

“Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.” Dread Pirate Roberts

nuancebydefault 3y ago

Is it really true that in general, a manager can just fire you? Where I work, my manager can report badly about me, but he cannot fire me. Even if the team responsible for hiring/firing concludes they will let me go, they still need to follow the law. E.g. there needs to be documentation of my (mal) functioning and there has to be attemps to improve performance or behavior. Is this only true in Europe maybe?

azmarks 3y ago
It depends on the company and their policies. When working at large companies, there is generally a HR department that has to "approve" all firings. This is usually to make sure policies and laws are being followed. At smaller companies in most of the US, a manager can just say bye and you're gone.
huytersd 3y ago
I have fired people for insubordination. Specifically public insubordination.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
In the US, it depends on state law, at least to some degree. In some states you can be fired without cause and without recourse; in others you can't. Note well: I am not a labor-law lawyer. There may be some nuances and details here that escape me.
- lazide 3y ago
  The only non-At will employment state is Montana. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/at-will_employment https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/at-will_employment]
121789 3y ago
in non-unionized jobs in the US, yes this is true for all intents and purposes. it's not very easy in larger corporations, but they can pretty much always make it happen
phildini 3y ago
In the US, especially in CA, where so many readers of this site live and work, absolutely. All the policies and procedures are there to, ultimately, protect the company from wrongful termination or discrimination lawsuits. There's not really a govt body that mandates that. (Handwave around: there are some protected activities that the govt cares if you're fired for, and if you can prove you were fired as retaliation then the company is in trouble, but mostly your manager can just fire you)
marssaxman 3y ago
> there needs to be documentation of my (mal) functioning and there has to be attemps to improve performance or behavior Many large US companies also use such procedures. Instead of firing you on the spot, your manager puts you through a three-month "performance improvement program", aka PIP, during which the documentation of your inadequate performance and failure to improve is created, and then you are fired.
p4ul 3y ago
In the US, most employers roughly follow the guidelines that the Federal government uses [1]. Which is to say, that employment is "at will", and either the employer or employee can terminate the relationship at any time. The obvious caveat is that someone cannot be fired for a reason that would be illegal (e.g., firing someone because of age, gender, religion, etc.). In practice, however, most organizations are extremely risk-averse when it comes to wrongful termination lawsuits. And as such, they'll have a lengthy "performance-improvement plan" (PIP) that can last three to six months and is meant to serve as evidence that an employee's poor performance was the reason for dismissal. There are also, of course, extreme cases where someone can be fired "for cause" when they've committed some kind of egregious violation (e.g., embezzling funds, fraud, corporate espionage). [1.] https://www.usa.gov/termination-for-employers https://www.usa.gov/termination-for-employers

1123581321 3y ago

This is good advice. It doesn’t take many data points, just one or two similar-sounding conversations, to inadvertently establish a pattern that can worry a whole team.

llimos 3y ago

And never ever joke about firing someone. Even if there's some technicality where we 'fire' you and rehire under a different entity, don't start the announcement with 'you're all fired. Ha ha, not really'. The cannon anxiety is real.