10 ms·

I’ve seen agile done well once. Yes it does happen. The process was not described, spoken of or even considered. It just existed between a few like minded decen

• hkt 3y ago
  Exactly the same thing here. Once some interloper with paper qualifications and no tech background rocks up and says "this is how agile works!" you're doomed. The only time I've ever seen this not happen was when we had a 55 year old delivery manager who viewed his job as facilitating team meetings in a way that meant everyone got the chance to speak and that consensus formed. Didn't try to dictate process or anything, just made sure everyone got heard and that decisions got made. He was patient enough to wait and not force the issues, too.
  • praptak 3y ago
    Organisations make it very hard to be that manager. On top of the human tendency to overmanage there's often push from top for "more visibility and accountability" which results in forcing stuff rather than facilitating.
    • hkt 3y ago
      Blame Mckinsey and their ilk: "what can be measured can be managed". (I refuse to utter the above phrase without accompanying it with tjis: "not everything that counts can be counted")
      • thimp 3y ago
        It's worse than that. Any sufficiently motivated person can phrase data any way they choose, particularly when their bonus is tied to it. Nor does the consumer of the data always validate that data. I've never seen a manager read a report they requested. That is on top of your suffix which I agree with a well.
  • nothercastle 3y ago
    Not everyone deserves a voice in every conversation. We had an office assistant once’s that had really strong opinions about how to implement features. They were not well informed.
• Scubabear68 3y ago
  The charlatans are a serious problem in software engineering today.
  • gitfan86 3y ago
    The good news is that it is easy for engineers to start their own companies and keep these people out at first at least. You will still get cold emails and LinkedIn messages from these people but you don't have to respond
    • thimp 3y ago
      It's somewhat more difficult to start their own companies and eat though which is why a lot of us eat shit and work with project managers.
• DrNosferatu 3y ago
  Quality engineering has to be *repeatable*. If it’s not described, and only works via the “minds of a few engineers”, you get amateur treehouse-quality engineering like the 737 MAX. I guess chance can make it work well like that “once” sporadically, but when you need to touch that code again to maintain it, we go back to the amateur treehouse.
  • bruce343434 3y ago
    What has been, in your experience, a repeatable process for quality engineering? How much does it depend on the kind of software one is engineering, or is it applicable to any kind of software with any kind of constraints?
    • EchoChamberMan 3y ago
      Repeatable processes require long term strategy. [edit] Too many of these people want tomatos, so they plant a tomato, when really they want seasonal tomatos, and need to consider a farm, and take into account growth cycles. The term I like is "sustainable development."
      • bruce343434 3y ago
        I was hoping for more actionable, or at least concrete, advice...
        • EchoChamberMan 3y ago
          Some complexity is irreducible. As mentioned by user "phkahler": > 1) Come to work. > 2) Look at the current state. > 3) Decide what the product needs from you. > 4) Do that. > 5) Use git. > Steps 2 and 3 may involve communication. Step 5 is tracking changes. Have a PM that tracks main things people are working on and estimated dates (not dictated dates). > This is how my current job works and we are unbelievably productive. [edit] I like the book "phoenix project," and I think they wrote "Team Topologies" which I am curious to read. [edit] In general, psychological safety was the number one factor for productive teams, according to a massive google study. From this viewpoint, it's easy to see why there are so few productive teams, as there is little to no safety for most people. Remember though, "There are no silver bullets." [Edit] The goal should be continuous delivery imo.
• whstl 3y ago
  I also had perfectly operating squads crumble to dust because of PMs, more than once. I still don't understand the role of PMs when there are engineering managers, product owners and self-organizing teams involved.
  • nothercastle 3y ago
    I honestly don’t understand how teams in large companies operate without pms. In the initial 5 man design phase sure skip them but when it need 10 groups to deliver some small change that they give zero fucks about the pm is there to keep everyone annoyed enough to do their job.
    • whstl 3y ago
      It works easily without PMs if you have engineering managers and product owners.