5 ms·

After watching a bunch of reviews I feel like the eyes on the outside is the “Touch Bar” of the AVP. Something that sounds cool in theory but Apple will eventu

After watching a bunch of reviews I feel like the eyes on the outside is the “Touch Bar” of the AVP. Something that sounds cool in theory but Apple will eventually drop in future models as it just adds extra complexity/cost for little benefit.

prawn 3y ago
That's a good comparison. It strikes me as a visual differentiator as much as anything, which is a shallow purpose. I'd initially assumed that they'd have some grander plans for it, but I assume the lenticular aspect implies that it's not going to be used for any sort of display that isn't inset an inch or two? e.g., it can't show a ghostly reverse view of what someone is seeing, or a visible HUD, or a digital effect (imagine a security guard wearing this, and the display is showing a "scanning, scanning" effect - cool, not useful...). And another confounding thing is that it might've been a pro feature you introduced after a base model, but if the eventual non-pro edition has a plastic front without Eyesight, and it's cheaper and lighter, most people will be happy about that. Ultimately, I think they just decided that it was worth the trade-offs to instantly have a headset that looked different and more futuristic than each competitor. They had to make a splash.
- astrange 3y ago
  It is used for some effects - it flashes when you take a photo, and it guides you through face scanning in initial setup.
  - dharmab 3y ago
    The flash could be a white LED. Apple has some other devices which require another device for setup, so it wouldn't be unusual for them. They could also offer setup at an Apple store.
    - astrange 3y ago
      > Apple has some other devices which require another device for setup, so it wouldn't be unusual for them. Hmm, I think that'd be pretty difficult because you can't guarantee the camera on another phone is good enough, unless you require everyone to have a phone from the last 1-2 years.
      - dharmab 3y ago
        You could display instructions on the phone and still use the depth camera on the device, which is presumably used for tracking anyway.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- pests 3y ago
  Its not for you, its for everyone around you. /Apple
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    I put my MacBook down in front of me, ready to use it. But for me, the owner and user, the apple on the lid is upside-down. I open the lid and look at the screen. Now the apple is right-side-up, for everyone else to look at. I love MBPs but when I notice that it makes me think I’m secretly participating in a promotional video set in a coffeehouse full of hip people with loud sweaters and knee high boots.
    - arcanemachiner 3y ago
      I mean, it would look pretty dumb if the logo was upside down while the product was in use. Particularly to appease the person who can't even see the logo while they're using the product.
      - mathieuh 3y ago
        Nevertheless that's how it used to be https://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/22/tech/gaming-gadgets/apple-upside-down-logo/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/22/tech/gaming-gadgets/apple...
      - pests 3y ago
        Who cares how other people see it? This always messes me up to. I want to place it down with the logo correctly orientated for _me_, the owner of the device. Like you said, once I flip it up and its wrong, I won't be able to see it as I'm using the product.
        throwaway11460 3y ago
        I care. Used to have a ThinkPad and thought it's super dumb that's it's upside down all the time.
dmix 3y ago
An extremely late model feature that marginally impacted UX for a subset of users but deeply upset a diehard subset (of a subet of) nerds philosophically? Which then got dropped the next major product cycle? Hate Apple's business mentalility as much as you want - or even predict another market entrant dominating AR goggles later - but Macbook remains the best in class for a good reason. And you don't get there without Apple understanding you don't mess with what works, aka listening to customers. Admitting you're wrong is one of the virtues most disregarded in our industry. It should be praised not scorned. Especially when all of us software engineers are common victims to cool new fancy tech and getting overly excited about it while disregarding IRL usecases or overvaluing our ability to adress "short term" trade offs via upgrading, and then fixing fundamentals far too late for customers to care.
- vosper 3y ago
  > Hate Apple's business mentalility as much as you want I didn’t see anything about hating Apple’s business mentality in the post you’re replying to. I think you’re both right, but you erected a bit of a strawman there.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  >Admitting you're wrong is one of the virtues most disregarded in our industry. From 2007 onwards (but some could say eben before that) and with Ive's power, Apple has lost all credibility by being utterly unwilling to admit their shortcomings. We had to wait years and years for the butterfly keyboard to drop, for magsafe and SD slot to be reintroduced. If for the next 10 years they go back to making their products more functional like they did in the 90s and early 2000s then maybe I'll reconsider
  - arrrg 3y ago
    I remember it differently. In my mind NeXT-Apple – while being perfectly willing openly eviscerate pre-NeXT-Apple – has always been extremely unwilling to admit any fault. I see consistency, not a trend. Maybe a slight trend towards a softening, towards being more willing to admit fault. Whether it’s brushed metal interfaces or butterfly keyboards, Apple isn’t good about admitting fault. Most of all openly. However, my experience is also (and I don’t think you can be successful for so long without that) that they are still reactive. Maybe sometimes a bit slow, maybe without saying they did something wrong (just quietly fixing it), but NeXT-Apple does eventually change shit things. Except, obviously when it’s deeply tied to something they hold strategically very dear. Then they are completely unable to. Overall my main point is that I don’t see a trend where you seem to be seeing one. Especially not post 2007.
rebuilder 3y ago
I feel it depends on whether they can get it to work well enough not to be creepy and weird. I think the reasoning is pretty obvious, most people will not wear huge goggles that cover half their face outside a private setting, it's just too socially offputting. So if you want to do AR out in the wild, you have to have some way of showing the face underneath, IMO. IOW, if Apple can't get the front display to work, their product will be limited to office and solo entertainment use.
mstade 3y ago
I'm one of those (there are dozens of us!) who actually liked the Touch Bar and not only that, deeply regret Apple giving up on it. I found it eminently useful to have contextual controls I could use rather than those non-descript Fn keys I don't really ever use. It wasn't perfect, for example the fact that it was just a single bar meant it was hard (but not impossible) to use accurately without looking, but to me it really was a step in the right direction. I hope they bring it back at some point, maybe in a way that appeases the Fn crowd as well so we can all be happy. Maybe a few physical buttons with an embedded screen a la stream decks, and a smaller bar in the center for more fluid things? I don't know. All I know is I miss it dearly.
- rjsw 3y ago
  The Apricot PC from 1983 had function keys with an LCD display above them that applications could use to label the functions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_PC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_PC
  - mstade 3y ago
    Neat, today I learned! Sadly no photos on that article, but I did find one here: http://www.computersammler.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG_20211207_194115-scaled.jpg http://www.computersammler.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG... Ahead of its time, clearly!
- ShamelessC 3y ago
  It’s still available on certain models, right?
  - mstade 3y ago
    I don't think so, at least not in the Pro line up and while I do very much like the Touch Bar, I like M3 Max a lot more. :o)
  - goosedragons 3y ago
    No, it died when they discontinued the 13" MBP with the launch of M3.

prawn 3y ago

That's a good comparison. It strikes me as a visual differentiator as much as anything, which is a shallow purpose. I'd initially assumed that they'd have some grander plans for it, but I assume the lenticular aspect implies that it's not going to be used for any sort of display that isn't inset an inch or two? e.g., it can't show a ghostly reverse view of what someone is seeing, or a visible HUD, or a digital effect (imagine a security guard wearing this, and the display is showing a "scanning, scanning" effect - cool, not useful...). And another confounding thing is that it might've been a pro feature you introduced after a base model, but if the eventual non-pro edition has a plastic front without Eyesight, and it's cheaper and lighter, most people will be happy about that. Ultimately, I think they just decided that it was worth the trade-offs to instantly have a headset that looked different and more futuristic than each competitor. They had to make a splash.

astrange 3y ago
It is used for some effects - it flashes when you take a photo, and it guides you through face scanning in initial setup.
- dharmab 3y ago
  The flash could be a white LED. Apple has some other devices which require another device for setup, so it wouldn't be unusual for them. They could also offer setup at an Apple store.
  - astrange 3y ago
    > Apple has some other devices which require another device for setup, so it wouldn't be unusual for them. Hmm, I think that'd be pretty difficult because you can't guarantee the camera on another phone is good enough, unless you require everyone to have a phone from the last 1-2 years.
    - dharmab 3y ago
      You could display instructions on the phone and still use the depth camera on the device, which is presumably used for tracking anyway.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
pests 3y ago
Its not for you, its for everyone around you. /Apple
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  I put my MacBook down in front of me, ready to use it. But for me, the owner and user, the apple on the lid is upside-down. I open the lid and look at the screen. Now the apple is right-side-up, for everyone else to look at. I love MBPs but when I notice that it makes me think I’m secretly participating in a promotional video set in a coffeehouse full of hip people with loud sweaters and knee high boots.
  - arcanemachiner 3y ago
    I mean, it would look pretty dumb if the logo was upside down while the product was in use. Particularly to appease the person who can't even see the logo while they're using the product.
    - mathieuh 3y ago
      Nevertheless that's how it used to be https://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/22/tech/gaming-gadgets/apple-upside-down-logo/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/22/tech/gaming-gadgets/apple...
    - pests 3y ago
      Who cares how other people see it? This always messes me up to. I want to place it down with the logo correctly orientated for _me_, the owner of the device. Like you said, once I flip it up and its wrong, I won't be able to see it as I'm using the product.
      - throwaway11460 3y ago
        I care. Used to have a ThinkPad and thought it's super dumb that's it's upside down all the time.

dmix 3y ago

An extremely late model feature that marginally impacted UX for a subset of users but deeply upset a diehard subset (of a subet of) nerds philosophically? Which then got dropped the next major product cycle? Hate Apple's business mentalility as much as you want - or even predict another market entrant dominating AR goggles later - but Macbook remains the best in class for a good reason. And you don't get there without Apple understanding you don't mess with what works, aka listening to customers. Admitting you're wrong is one of the virtues most disregarded in our industry. It should be praised not scorned. Especially when all of us software engineers are common victims to cool new fancy tech and getting overly excited about it while disregarding IRL usecases or overvaluing our ability to adress "short term" trade offs via upgrading, and then fixing fundamentals far too late for customers to care.

vosper 3y ago
> Hate Apple's business mentalility as much as you want I didn’t see anything about hating Apple’s business mentality in the post you’re replying to. I think you’re both right, but you erected a bit of a strawman there.
Almondsetat 3y ago
>Admitting you're wrong is one of the virtues most disregarded in our industry. From 2007 onwards (but some could say eben before that) and with Ive's power, Apple has lost all credibility by being utterly unwilling to admit their shortcomings. We had to wait years and years for the butterfly keyboard to drop, for magsafe and SD slot to be reintroduced. If for the next 10 years they go back to making their products more functional like they did in the 90s and early 2000s then maybe I'll reconsider
- arrrg 3y ago
  I remember it differently. In my mind NeXT-Apple – while being perfectly willing openly eviscerate pre-NeXT-Apple – has always been extremely unwilling to admit any fault. I see consistency, not a trend. Maybe a slight trend towards a softening, towards being more willing to admit fault. Whether it’s brushed metal interfaces or butterfly keyboards, Apple isn’t good about admitting fault. Most of all openly. However, my experience is also (and I don’t think you can be successful for so long without that) that they are still reactive. Maybe sometimes a bit slow, maybe without saying they did something wrong (just quietly fixing it), but NeXT-Apple does eventually change shit things. Except, obviously when it’s deeply tied to something they hold strategically very dear. Then they are completely unable to. Overall my main point is that I don’t see a trend where you seem to be seeing one. Especially not post 2007.

rebuilder 3y ago

I feel it depends on whether they can get it to work well enough not to be creepy and weird. I think the reasoning is pretty obvious, most people will not wear huge goggles that cover half their face outside a private setting, it's just too socially offputting. So if you want to do AR out in the wild, you have to have some way of showing the face underneath, IMO. IOW, if Apple can't get the front display to work, their product will be limited to office and solo entertainment use.

mstade 3y ago

I'm one of those (there are dozens of us!) who actually liked the Touch Bar and not only that, deeply regret Apple giving up on it. I found it eminently useful to have contextual controls I could use rather than those non-descript Fn keys I don't really ever use. It wasn't perfect, for example the fact that it was just a single bar meant it was hard (but not impossible) to use accurately without looking, but to me it really was a step in the right direction. I hope they bring it back at some point, maybe in a way that appeases the Fn crowd as well so we can all be happy. Maybe a few physical buttons with an embedded screen a la stream decks, and a smaller bar in the center for more fluid things? I don't know. All I know is I miss it dearly.

rjsw 3y ago
The Apricot PC from 1983 had function keys with an LCD display above them that applications could use to label the functions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_PC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_PC
- mstade 3y ago
  Neat, today I learned! Sadly no photos on that article, but I did find one here: http://www.computersammler.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG_20211207_194115-scaled.jpg http://www.computersammler.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG... Ahead of its time, clearly!
ShamelessC 3y ago
It’s still available on certain models, right?
- mstade 3y ago
  I don't think so, at least not in the Pro line up and while I do very much like the Touch Bar, I like M3 Max a lot more. :o)
- goosedragons 3y ago
  No, it died when they discontinued the 13" MBP with the launch of M3.