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I think this is a wonderful idea and begins to create a foundation of data richness and interoperability for a very exciting new approach to PCB design, as I co

I think this is a wonderful idea and begins to create a foundation of data richness and interoperability for a very exciting new approach to PCB design, as I commented elsewhere in this thread However I do want to mention that I think it might be necessary to be able to "cross-compile" to visual schematic format, and back. Or perhaps there is an open schematic tool that can be extended? The issue is that I think electrical schematics are significantly more familiar to EE types, contain more legible information. Instead of reinventing the wheel there, it'd be nice to see a system that can switch back and forth between text and visual schematic. How are schematics described as files currently? Is there an open standard? Can it be converted to atopile format, and back?

Timot05 3y ago
Yeah that’s an interesting aspect. We did implement a viewer very early on. And we then removed it from the project. What we discovered is that: - making a visual viewer is a non trivial endeavor. It takes a lot of time but the value add is marginal for an average viewer. - people tend to spend a lot of time making the viewer look good instead of improving the circuit We think that in the long run, a viewer could be awesome to inspect what is going on or get a general understanding of the circuit. But it’ll be difficult to justify the time spent on it early on in the project.
- napowderly 3y ago
  Worth adding, we have found much higher returns building tools to solve the problems that a visualizer would normally help you with in other ways. For example ERC checking and modular abstraction of circuits. Working at a 'block diagram' level is much more intuitive than at the net level in my experience. We also think that there might be better and more interesting ways to view your data, for example maybe you want to just see all the power paths through your circuit, or investigate how a signal travels from your input to your adc through filters, protection etc. Often on big designs these things might be strewn across multiple sheets and a bit hard to follow.
- malfist 3y ago
  As a novice, a viewer would be really helpful to me to understand what it's actually doing. I did bookmark this for the next project I have in mind.
  - napowderly 3y ago
    I am definitely curious for feedback from people after using it for a while. I felt the same in the beginning, but after writing a fair bit of it, I rarely find myself wanting it. I could imagine for more casual or new users it could be helpful at least for the transition.
polalavik 3y ago
I was thinking the same thing (I'm an EE by day). I think this idea is very cool, but since the dawn of time schematics and PCB layout have always been visual because you are actually building a physical thing. Its easy to see hardware bugs in schematics visually. However, it might be very hard to track it in code, unless the code is one day smart enough to find the bugs for you. You have to hold more context in your head that you cant export to your visual senses when its written as code. You cant see the actual circuit flow. edit: just wanted to double down on this being very cool though. i dont mean to deflate this project and I'm about to design a pcb for a personal project - I might give this a go for fun. the promise is there and asthe project and feature set grows i can see it being the way forward.
- Timot05 3y ago
  We do agree. We built an early version of a viewer in the project but later moved away from it because it wasn't good enough to interact with. We might come back to it with something that is more targeted at inspecting only sections of the circuit or provide a block diagram level representation. But we don't think that just outputting a schematic the way they look today is the right solution.
  - techdragon 3y ago
    You might find this a stumbling point for adoption. My first thought is this could be a good tool for me to use, but how can I send a design to someone else to get feedback on if I’m not going to expect them to also also learn how to use this or how can I get my design manufactured if the tools can’t export out the, normally very visual, layout files.
    - Timot05 3y ago
      I do think that is fair. The reason that we don't have a visualizer is not that we don't want one, but rather that the value to effort ratio is quite low (and really because the effort is high, not because of low value). I'm sure we'll get there at some point. But at the moment there are more pressing issues for the people who are ok dealing with no visualization (like typing, language server, equations etc...).

Timot05 3y ago

Yeah that’s an interesting aspect. We did implement a viewer very early on. And we then removed it from the project. What we discovered is that: - making a visual viewer is a non trivial endeavor. It takes a lot of time but the value add is marginal for an average viewer. - people tend to spend a lot of time making the viewer look good instead of improving the circuit We think that in the long run, a viewer could be awesome to inspect what is going on or get a general understanding of the circuit. But it’ll be difficult to justify the time spent on it early on in the project.

napowderly 3y ago
Worth adding, we have found much higher returns building tools to solve the problems that a visualizer would normally help you with in other ways. For example ERC checking and modular abstraction of circuits. Working at a 'block diagram' level is much more intuitive than at the net level in my experience. We also think that there might be better and more interesting ways to view your data, for example maybe you want to just see all the power paths through your circuit, or investigate how a signal travels from your input to your adc through filters, protection etc. Often on big designs these things might be strewn across multiple sheets and a bit hard to follow.
malfist 3y ago
As a novice, a viewer would be really helpful to me to understand what it's actually doing. I did bookmark this for the next project I have in mind.
- napowderly 3y ago
  I am definitely curious for feedback from people after using it for a while. I felt the same in the beginning, but after writing a fair bit of it, I rarely find myself wanting it. I could imagine for more casual or new users it could be helpful at least for the transition.

polalavik 3y ago

I was thinking the same thing (I'm an EE by day). I think this idea is very cool, but since the dawn of time schematics and PCB layout have always been visual because you are actually building a physical thing. Its easy to see hardware bugs in schematics visually. However, it might be very hard to track it in code, unless the code is one day smart enough to find the bugs for you. You have to hold more context in your head that you cant export to your visual senses when its written as code. You cant see the actual circuit flow. edit: just wanted to double down on this being very cool though. i dont mean to deflate this project and I'm about to design a pcb for a personal project - I might give this a go for fun. the promise is there and asthe project and feature set grows i can see it being the way forward.

Timot05 3y ago
We do agree. We built an early version of a viewer in the project but later moved away from it because it wasn't good enough to interact with. We might come back to it with something that is more targeted at inspecting only sections of the circuit or provide a block diagram level representation. But we don't think that just outputting a schematic the way they look today is the right solution.
- techdragon 3y ago
  You might find this a stumbling point for adoption. My first thought is this could be a good tool for me to use, but how can I send a design to someone else to get feedback on if I’m not going to expect them to also also learn how to use this or how can I get my design manufactured if the tools can’t export out the, normally very visual, layout files.
  - Timot05 3y ago
    I do think that is fair. The reason that we don't have a visualizer is not that we don't want one, but rather that the value to effort ratio is quite low (and really because the effort is high, not because of low value). I'm sure we'll get there at some point. But at the moment there are more pressing issues for the people who are ok dealing with no visualization (like typing, language server, equations etc...).