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People on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous. This involves less that 1 watt of power. The law should not concern itself with tr

by 127361 3y ago

People on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous. This involves less that 1 watt of power. The law should not concern itself with trifles. It's more of a health and safety issue than any "theft". They don't seem to get the nuance of the situation and can only see it in terms of black and white and following "the rules". I've personally seen this behavior a lot in the amateur radio community, where people were harassed or threatened for breaking some minor rule. You should see what hooligans in Belarus and Russia get up to, now that is a legitimate problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4zO2gB70ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4zO2gB70ps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco

m3kw9 3y ago
Seems like they’ve never driven over the speed limit
ysofunny 3y ago
people think copying files can also be stealing which is even dumber love those crazy russian youtubers, they're always so reckless... they're fun to watch from a safe distance
- matt-attack 3y ago
  Copying files is absolutely not stealing since it doesn’t remove something from the owner. Stealing is conventional bad not because the thief acquires something, but because the original owner is deprived of something. I’d be pissed if someone stole cash from me even if they burn it. It’s not that they now have my property, it’s that I * no longer have* my property that’s the issue. In the case of piracy, the original owner still has their property. So I’m sorry but “theft” is simply the wrong word. The original owner is not deprived of their data. In the case of the fence however, the original owner is indeed deprived of some modicum of energy. The energy is indeed *taken*, or removed from the original owner. Thus I do consider this “theft”. It’s also true that it’s a trivial amount.
tomohawk 3y ago
If you attach a load to an electrical line, then you are transferring power from the line for your use. This power is then no longer available for paying customers to use. The load in question here is an inductive load, coupled through the air to the transmission line through well known physical principles. If caught, you could be charged with theft for sure. This is regardless of what people are doing or not doing in Belarus or Russia.
- tankenmate 3y ago
  If you harvest loss that was happening anyway then it isn't theft; you can't be charged for theft for something someone else threw away.
  - dieortin 3y ago
    That’s not really true, you’re not harvesting “loss”. When you use that electromagnetic field to induce a current, you’re creating another electromagnetic field that opposes the first one, and which resists the current in the high voltage line. I’m not saying this is stealing, but it’s certainly not “harvesting loss”.
    - 127361 3y ago
      Well the ground is creating that exact opposing electric field anyway. If trees were planted to the same height as the wire, then the loss to the electric company is the same. He's just in effect increasing the height of the ground slightly and tapping the potential difference. You might as well park a car underneath it, attach a wire between the body and ground, and get same or better results, because the surface area is larger (capacitively coupled).
      - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
        It's not, you're increasing the total resistance felt by the line. There is no free energy.
Simulacra 3y ago
I think what drives some of the comments that it is illegal is a little bit of righteous indignation. "How dare you get free electricity, that's illegal because I'm not getting free electricity." It's kind of fake moral outrage
- 127361 3y ago
  Also power trips (especially by radio hams) and territoriality (impinging on "their" spectrum). It really is animal behavior there, people are supposed to react better than that when such trivial "offenses" happen. If there's deliberate high powered jamming going on, it's a completely different matter.
  - Simulacra 3y ago
    I can understand that, I'm a ham, if someone was doing something that was interfering with my station then I would be unhappy… Especially if it was deliberate. If it's not intentional, then, I really don't have much room to complain. I should better insulate.
toss1 3y ago
Ha! Fun videos, tho quite a problem indeed! Well, there is this cool physics/art installation of 1301 fluorescent tubes being lit by high-voltage lines [0]. There is the story I heard about early in the history of long-distance high-tension lines someone building an inductive coil to harvest electricity, and getting convicted of theft, which seem legit, since it is coupling with the lines and pulling more power than the grasses & ground would pull. There are also various references available online to cases, but the readily available ones don't seem to link to any court case (e.g., [1]). I saw some back-of-the-envelope calculations about it being on the scale of 25 millivolts/mile, so you'd need quite a coil to get anything more useful than powering a bulb. Anyone with better calculations or actual measurements? [0] https://jimonlight.com/2009/03/01/field-by-richard-box/ https://jimonlight.com/2009/03/01/field-by-richard-box/ [1] https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/23799/has-anyone-been-caught-using-inductive-coupling-to-steal-power https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/23799/has-anyon...
- pueblito 3y ago
  Don’t click that first link
  - cf1241290841 3y ago
    Explanation would be beneficial. Without you just make it more likely that someone does.
  - gonn 3y ago
    > Don’t click that first link For anyone wondering, it redirects to ```https://ak.oneegrou.net/4/6521518 https://ak.oneegrou.net/4/6521518```, which seems to be flagged as adware. Tested and the page got blocked on Firefox for Android
mytailorisrich 3y ago
If in your jurisdiction there is a law against this then it is useful to be aware of it. This is not passing judgement, this is being informed. Then, you make your own informed decision and can argue your case if you get caught. I suppose that one angle is not that one person is extracting a very small amount, it is that if you allow it then everyone can do the same.
- 127361 3y ago
  Then they can start cracking down on the problem if it becomes widespread. But not when it isn't. When the punishment far exceeds the loss caused by the "crime" then it is absolutely unfair, it undermines the rule of law itself. Just being arrested over it could be considered punishment itself. Especially if it's a young person who gets into trouble, it is traumatic for them. It is also sending the message that the system itself is unjust, and he/she might not think twice before committing a real crime, e.g. real theft or fraud when he/she grows up.
  - teddyh 3y ago
    > When the punishment far exceeds the loss caused by the "crime" then it is absolutely unfair, it undermines the rule of law itself. What about punishment as a deterrent? People can commit a crime many times and only get caught once. Should they be punished only up to the cost of the one crime they were caught doing?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwup238 3y ago
      It’s not one crime, it’s all of them. The cost of enforcing one instance is more than the cost of all infractions, by all people. Enforcing such laws would turn the law into a farce.
      - teddyh 3y ago
tantalor 3y ago
Joanna: [Confused] So you're stealing? Peter Gibbons: Ah no, you don't understand. It's very complicated. It's, uh, it's aggregate, so I'm talking about fractions of a penny here. And over time they add up to a lot.
- throwup238 3y ago
  And it woulda worked too if not for that pesky red stapler!
ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
1. It is stealing 2. Its a tiny amount of power Both can be true. Taking a single grape at the supermarket is illegal but no one would arrest you for it.
- samstave 3y ago
  "Stealing" https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the-presidents-initiative-on-junk-fees-and-related-pricing-practices/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the... And those are just the ones that are so obvious the POTUS needed to make a statement. Corporations steal trillions through dark patterns, intentiona obfuscation, mailicious marketing, price fixing, collusion, fraud etc. Every piece of personal data shared between every online entity I have no relation to, or awareness of - is stealing from me. stealing, in this case is a broad, vulgar term. If you don't like stealing - then you wont get any place in successful business it would seem, based on the observable, documented, litigated and governmental precedents throughout history.
  - 127361 3y ago
    It depends on who's doing the theft. If it's a high status organization or individual they get away with it, including those behind the 2008 financial crisis. If it's a low status individual, they get put behind bars. It's a dominance hierarchy and those at the top hold all the cards.
    - samstave 3y ago
      Where does the notion of "depends" "whom" - lies... (etymology on lies, lay ... it all boils down to, druidic functions of WERD. - And may Holy Wood be of interest - as its Druidic knowledge is scrubbed yet ensconsconced into the fabric of digital reality...) [There is a significant impact on tech with Druidism that is not known]
      - samstave 3y ago
        Programming. Is. A. Formulation. (look at the druidic etymology of SPELLING, CODING. I am utterly dumb-founded (reaching upon dumbness once FOUND the conclusion)... How few 'smart' people understand the functions. FFS, networking was based on LSD. DOS was a hottub LSD session, just like RIP and BGP.
Metacelsus 3y ago
Lol, the name of that channel ("Elektryka Prąd Nie Tyka") is a Polish saying, "electricity doesn't touch the electrician". I guess these hooligans weren't electricians!
Someone 3y ago
> People on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous I strongly disagree. Many jurisdictions call it theft to tap off electricity, even though no electrons are taken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_theft, https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/power-theft-silent-crime https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/power-th...) I would think that using a transformer so that one need not physically connect a wire wouldn’t necessarily change that (it would if the law in question mentions that connection a conductor is needed) This is a sort of transformer (a very bad one, but still one), so I think many jurisdictions still would call it stealing. Whether they would think it worthy of prosecution is a different question.
- teo_zero 3y ago
  I think the GP was making a point about the dimension of the business. Even if it's theft, stealing a mere watt should be negligible.
- NoPicklez 3y ago
  I think the point they're making is that whilst it is technically stealing, it is such a small amount. Stealing a grape from the supermarket vs robbing a supermarket of all its fruit and veg. There's bigger fish to fry and the world doesn't have enough time and resources to go after or worry about such things.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
hulitu 3y ago
> People on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous You should ask a lawyer. /s

by 127361 3y ago

m3kw9 3y ago

Seems like they’ve never driven over the speed limit

ysofunny 3y ago

people think copying files can also be stealing which is even dumber love those crazy russian youtubers, they're always so reckless... they're fun to watch from a safe distance

matt-attack 3y ago
Copying files is absolutely not stealing since it doesn’t remove something from the owner. Stealing is conventional bad not because the thief acquires something, but because the original owner is deprived of something. I’d be pissed if someone stole cash from me even if they burn it. It’s not that they now have my property, it’s that I * no longer have* my property that’s the issue. In the case of piracy, the original owner still has their property. So I’m sorry but “theft” is simply the wrong word. The original owner is not deprived of their data. In the case of the fence however, the original owner is indeed deprived of some modicum of energy. The energy is indeed *taken*, or removed from the original owner. Thus I do consider this “theft”. It’s also true that it’s a trivial amount.

tomohawk 3y ago

If you attach a load to an electrical line, then you are transferring power from the line for your use. This power is then no longer available for paying customers to use. The load in question here is an inductive load, coupled through the air to the transmission line through well known physical principles. If caught, you could be charged with theft for sure. This is regardless of what people are doing or not doing in Belarus or Russia.

tankenmate 3y ago
If you harvest loss that was happening anyway then it isn't theft; you can't be charged for theft for something someone else threw away.
- dieortin 3y ago
  That’s not really true, you’re not harvesting “loss”. When you use that electromagnetic field to induce a current, you’re creating another electromagnetic field that opposes the first one, and which resists the current in the high voltage line. I’m not saying this is stealing, but it’s certainly not “harvesting loss”.
  - 127361 3y ago
    Well the ground is creating that exact opposing electric field anyway. If trees were planted to the same height as the wire, then the loss to the electric company is the same. He's just in effect increasing the height of the ground slightly and tapping the potential difference. You might as well park a car underneath it, attach a wire between the body and ground, and get same or better results, because the surface area is larger (capacitively coupled).
    - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
      It's not, you're increasing the total resistance felt by the line. There is no free energy.

Simulacra 3y ago

I think what drives some of the comments that it is illegal is a little bit of righteous indignation. "How dare you get free electricity, that's illegal because I'm not getting free electricity." It's kind of fake moral outrage

127361 3y ago
Also power trips (especially by radio hams) and territoriality (impinging on "their" spectrum). It really is animal behavior there, people are supposed to react better than that when such trivial "offenses" happen. If there's deliberate high powered jamming going on, it's a completely different matter.
- Simulacra 3y ago
  I can understand that, I'm a ham, if someone was doing something that was interfering with my station then I would be unhappy… Especially if it was deliberate. If it's not intentional, then, I really don't have much room to complain. I should better insulate.

toss1 3y ago

Ha! Fun videos, tho quite a problem indeed! Well, there is this cool physics/art installation of 1301 fluorescent tubes being lit by high-voltage lines [0]. There is the story I heard about early in the history of long-distance high-tension lines someone building an inductive coil to harvest electricity, and getting convicted of theft, which seem legit, since it is coupling with the lines and pulling more power than the grasses & ground would pull. There are also various references available online to cases, but the readily available ones don't seem to link to any court case (e.g., [1]). I saw some back-of-the-envelope calculations about it being on the scale of 25 millivolts/mile, so you'd need quite a coil to get anything more useful than powering a bulb. Anyone with better calculations or actual measurements? [0] https://jimonlight.com/2009/03/01/field-by-richard-box/ https://jimonlight.com/2009/03/01/field-by-richard-box/ [1] https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/23799/has-anyone-been-caught-using-inductive-coupling-to-steal-power https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/23799/has-anyon...

pueblito 3y ago
Don’t click that first link
- cf1241290841 3y ago
  Explanation would be beneficial. Without you just make it more likely that someone does.
- gonn 3y ago
  > Don’t click that first link For anyone wondering, it redirects to ```https://ak.oneegrou.net/4/6521518 https://ak.oneegrou.net/4/6521518```, which seems to be flagged as adware. Tested and the page got blocked on Firefox for Android

mytailorisrich 3y ago

If in your jurisdiction there is a law against this then it is useful to be aware of it. This is not passing judgement, this is being informed. Then, you make your own informed decision and can argue your case if you get caught. I suppose that one angle is not that one person is extracting a very small amount, it is that if you allow it then everyone can do the same.

127361 3y ago
Then they can start cracking down on the problem if it becomes widespread. But not when it isn't. When the punishment far exceeds the loss caused by the "crime" then it is absolutely unfair, it undermines the rule of law itself. Just being arrested over it could be considered punishment itself. Especially if it's a young person who gets into trouble, it is traumatic for them. It is also sending the message that the system itself is unjust, and he/she might not think twice before committing a real crime, e.g. real theft or fraud when he/she grows up.
- teddyh 3y ago
  > When the punishment far exceeds the loss caused by the "crime" then it is absolutely unfair, it undermines the rule of law itself. What about punishment as a deterrent? People can commit a crime many times and only get caught once. Should they be punished only up to the cost of the one crime they were caught doing?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwup238 3y ago
    It’s not one crime, it’s all of them. The cost of enforcing one instance is more than the cost of all infractions, by all people. Enforcing such laws would turn the law into a farce.
    - teddyh 3y ago

tantalor 3y ago

Joanna: [Confused] So you're stealing? Peter Gibbons: Ah no, you don't understand. It's very complicated. It's, uh, it's aggregate, so I'm talking about fractions of a penny here. And over time they add up to a lot.

throwup238 3y ago
And it woulda worked too if not for that pesky red stapler!

ThrowawayTestr 3y ago

1. It is stealing 2. Its a tiny amount of power Both can be true. Taking a single grape at the supermarket is illegal but no one would arrest you for it.

samstave 3y ago
"Stealing" https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the-presidents-initiative-on-junk-fees-and-related-pricing-practices/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the... And those are just the ones that are so obvious the POTUS needed to make a statement. Corporations steal trillions through dark patterns, intentiona obfuscation, mailicious marketing, price fixing, collusion, fraud etc. Every piece of personal data shared between every online entity I have no relation to, or awareness of - is stealing from me. stealing, in this case is a broad, vulgar term. If you don't like stealing - then you wont get any place in successful business it would seem, based on the observable, documented, litigated and governmental precedents throughout history.
- 127361 3y ago
  It depends on who's doing the theft. If it's a high status organization or individual they get away with it, including those behind the 2008 financial crisis. If it's a low status individual, they get put behind bars. It's a dominance hierarchy and those at the top hold all the cards.
  - samstave 3y ago
    Where does the notion of "depends" "whom" - lies... (etymology on lies, lay ... it all boils down to, druidic functions of WERD. - And may Holy Wood be of interest - as its Druidic knowledge is scrubbed yet ensconsconced into the fabric of digital reality...) [There is a significant impact on tech with Druidism that is not known]
    - samstave 3y ago
      Programming. Is. A. Formulation. (look at the druidic etymology of SPELLING, CODING. I am utterly dumb-founded (reaching upon dumbness once FOUND the conclusion)... How few 'smart' people understand the functions. FFS, networking was based on LSD. DOS was a hottub LSD session, just like RIP and BGP.

Metacelsus 3y ago

Lol, the name of that channel ("Elektryka Prąd Nie Tyka") is a Polish saying, "electricity doesn't touch the electrician". I guess these hooligans weren't electricians!

Someone 3y ago

> People on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous I strongly disagree. Many jurisdictions call it theft to tap off electricity, even though no electrons are taken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_theft, https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/power-theft-silent-crime https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/power-th...) I would think that using a transformer so that one need not physically connect a wire wouldn’t necessarily change that (it would if the law in question mentions that connection a conductor is needed) This is a sort of transformer (a very bad one, but still one), so I think many jurisdictions still would call it stealing. Whether they would think it worthy of prosecution is a different question.

teo_zero 3y ago
I think the GP was making a point about the dimension of the business. Even if it's theft, stealing a mere watt should be negligible.
NoPicklez 3y ago
I think the point they're making is that whilst it is technically stealing, it is such a small amount. Stealing a grape from the supermarket vs robbing a supermarket of all its fruit and veg. There's bigger fish to fry and the world doesn't have enough time and resources to go after or worry about such things.

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

hulitu 3y ago

> People on that forum are trying to call this "stealing", which is ridiculous You should ask a lawyer. /s