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Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court
- silisili 3y agoI don't get this. Why not pay an employee to take a few hours, ask a person from the necessary team to take a look, then call or write the complainant? That -has- to be cheaper than getting all these lawyers involved over what was probably, as the article states, a glitch of some sort.
- foobarian 3y agoIt's not apples to apples. You need to pay an employee to take a few hours to handle one complaint, multiplied by number of complaints. And this is more expensive than paying lawyers a much smaller number of times.
- ayoubd 3y agoAgreed, it seems like a disproportionate response. Handling the situation quietly when the court case was filed might have avoided this bad-for-Meta legal precedent. Taking it to trial seems like the most risky move, I'm interested if anyone can see Meta's legal logic here.
- cube00 3y agoLawyers don't get paid if the issue is resolved internally by support teams.
- OkGoDoIt 3y agoThat’s assuming Meta has support teams. I’ve yet to see evidence of that. I once had to solve a Facebook business page issue that went unanswered for a year, and the only way I got it moving was to send a legal threat to Meta on a lawyer’s letterhead. Ended up solving the problem with a couple weeks.
- nerdponx 3y agoDid they assume they would win?
- teeray 3y agoThat’s assuming you can even contact the necessary team. Usually your only recourse with FB is clicking through a support wizard and filling out a textbox. Then you get a final, unappealable judgement from an admin as a notification.
- dylan604 3y agoI'm reading as why did Meta not pay its employees internally to resolve this matter instead of paying attorneys to litigate this case. The assumption being that an employee is already on the payroll so just give them an assignment instead of giving money to lawyers. I'm guessing their arrogance told them they'd never lose the case and it would be worth it to set precedence. Only it might have backfired
- teeray 3y agoAh, I think your reading is more correct. Thanks for clarifying :)
- reactordev 3y agoBecause Meta’s support system is entirely run by automation. By bots. There’s no human. No one knew, no one noticed, no one cared.
- pxeboot 3y agoOnce served with a lawsuit, most companies don't continue to rely on their publicly accessible support system.
- reactordev 3y agoExactly, in comes through a separate channel (lawyers) and then actually is dealt with.
- dylan604 3y agosuch a cop out answer. someone wrote that bot. someone can investigate logs to see what the bot did. some PM is in charge of the people that wrote the bots. their bonuses are dependent on good reviews. anyone writing automation that doesn't leave a trail to follow wouldn't be worth much. no logging is an amateur move or the move of a guilty party. hopefully, the next case will have lawyers instead of some small shop owner fighting for their life. the lawyer might be able to convince a judge these logs need to be turned over. all i'm seeing from the work this small business owner did with this case was to find where the loose string in the sweater is. we now just need the right people to start pulling on that string.
- gumby 3y agoI assume lots of glitches occur (after all they "move fast and break things") and feel if they engage with one they'll be required to engage with others. While if they just spend the effort to stonewall the few who complain they'll save money in the long run. They have billions of accounts, so what's a few to them?
- reactordev 3y agoMeta’s help support is a bot. Theres no human. You can’t reach a human. The only recourse you have is what this man did.
- jfoster 3y agoI initially read it the way you did, but OP means from Meta's side once they have received notice of legal action being initiated.
- irrational 3y agoI’ve worked for the same Fortune 500 company for 20+ years. 99% of the time I have zero idea what team does what and whom I would even talk to find out. With nearly 100,000 employees and I have no idea how many thousands of departments and teams, I don’t think anyone really has the big picture of what everyone is doing.
- kiba 3y agoIt sounds like there's a job for people who knows the bird eye's view as well as the ground truth of an organization.
- wizardforhire 3y agoThats crazy talk, what would such a role even be called?
- danielheath 3y agoThey used to be called Architects, but over time that name came to be associated with losing track of the ground truth.
- kibibu 3y agoEasy mistake to make, but architects design building.
- tracker1 3y agoIf it were like a military thing. They'd likely be an officer, maybe even a chief of some kind.
- irrational 3y agoI’m just imagining going up to somebody in the c-suite and telling them what team I work for and what I do. I guarantee they would have no idea we exist. I once sat next to the manager who is three levels above me at a lunch meeting. She had zero idea who my team was or what we did.
- eek2121 3y agoBig tech companies don't get big and stay big by hiring tons of humans to handle cases like these. Don't believe me? Try asking Google to fix a problem or Facebook or Twitter. (Apple is the exception, but they are much older and even they have issues)
- aurareturn 3y agoBecause Meta has billions of users and they don’t have humans look at these cases. It’s all automated. I lost my IG account multiple times due to using a VPN. I’m a normal user. Nothing malicious. Every support request is answered by only a robot.
- rdtsc 3y agoOnce "legal" starts looking at it, it's in their hands, everyone except them and the executive team better step aside. > In court, Soldati said Facebook attorneys were condescending and patronizing to him, but he took it seriously because it was his livelihood and because he thought that someone needed to fight them. He says it was “100%” worth it. Condescending and patronizing sounds about right. "We went to Yale and Harvard, and now work for Meta, no puny coffee shop owner is going to oppose us! This should be a walk in the park". It's pretty glorious how they lost.
- hackernewds 3y agoif you consider the scale of Meta, being international and all, it probably is not. I'm sure they've run the numbers. Think in expected values, since most won't sue.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago> Meta also argued it was immune to any cases brought against them under section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (CDA), which is often used to obtain immunity from claims involving the publishing or deletion of material on its platforms. A crack in Section 230. Nice!
- gumby 3y agoA crack in Section 230 would be disastrous. But this doesn't look like a crack at all, and IG never tried to claim that they had deliberately chosen to delete the account. That might even have pushed it under Section 230!
- phire 3y agoIt was a pretty shitty defence. Facebook were trying to argue that Section 230 somehow gave them immunity from their own terms and conditions.
- tracker1 3y agoLet alone a contract with payments involved. Too bad they weren't hit with tortious interference.
- gumby 3y agoThat’s a stretch, but wow, that would be interesting! I assume by “they” you mean FB/IG. They aren’t the ones who filed suit, so it’s a hard case to make. But I do feel there’s an implicit contract.
- fyrn_ 3y agoDid you read the article? Literally their first defense was that the user had deleted the account themselves
- m3kw9 3y agoWhen lawyers are asked who are paid thousands an hour they would gladly go ten years at it.
- jackvalentine 3y agoYes that’s why you have internal counsel that are paid a salary - to make sure external lawyers who charge for every single 6 minute block don’t run away with it because they can.
- latchkey 3y ago"In court, Soldati said Facebook attorneys were condescending and patronizing to him, but he took it seriously because it was his livelihood and because he thought that someone needed to fight them. He says it was “100%” worth it. Gary Burt, a Manchester lawyer who represented Meta in the New Hampshire Supreme Court as well as the Dover District Court, did not immediately respond to a request to comment for this story." So I looked him up and he looks like an affable chap. /s https://www.primmer.com/attorney/gary-m.-burt https://www.primmer.com/attorney/gary-m.-burt
- karlshea 3y agoWas fun to see a “VCard” link, haven’t even heard that word in like 15 years.
- mthoms 3y agoYeah, he looks really friendly. According to that page, he has defended both a "landlord in a million dollar lead paint claim" and an "oil delivery company against a million dollar pollution claim". I'm sure he's a lovely person though.
- macintux 3y agoReminds me of the West Wing conversation between Josh and Sam. > What are you doing? > Protecting oil companies from litigation. They're our client. They don't lose legal protection because they make a lot of money. > I can't believe no one ever wrote a folk song about that.
- Animats 3y agoWho will sue next? This could turn into a mini-industry.
- jimmySixDOF 3y agoSo now it's right on to a woldwide class action with all the claimants who went through the process of loosing an account with all the lost media and history and emotional damages due to "computer says No" ? I know a few people who would love to jump on that.
- pdonis 3y agoOnly for paying customers, since the fact that the cafe owner had paid for business-related services was part of what won him the lawsuit.
- kazinator 3y ago> Soldati’s win wasn’t just a win for him, he said, but a win for all Instagram users and small business owners who have faced similar problems with the tech company. This is just boilerplate nonsense used in every story like this. It is false. It was purely just a win for him. Anyone else wanting to sue Meta over a deleted account will have to go through almost exactly the same thing. The fact that Soldati may have set a precedent will at best only be a minor optimization in the entire bureaucratic mess.
- eek2121 3y agoThis shows you have no idea how the US court system works. Meta's defeat leads to a build up of case law, making it harder for meta and similar companies to win unlike class action lawsuits, which lead to nothing. It does take time for these cases to build up the appeals process and such, but it does get there. In short, he does win in the short term, but everyone wins in the long term.
- awongh 3y agoclass action suits don’t contribute to case law?
- kazinator 3y agoI understand precedents. How much can it help? The goal isn't just to win (which the guy did, after all) but not spend years. Suppose the existence of precedent knocks it down from 6 to 3 years. That's twice better, but still poor. Most people will give up.
- aurareturn 3y agoThere are billions of Meta users. If even 0.005% ever challenges Meta, that’s too much to handle for the company. So they’ll just enact better policies. I lost my Instagram account because I was on a VPN while browsing Instagram website. Nothing malicious. Just a normal user. This is good news for users because they build up years of history and connections on these apps.
- cube00 3y ago> Despite Facebook hiring several law firms to defend their case, Soldati, representing himself, was able to successfully argue Meta/Facebook committed a breach of contract and that they were not immune under the Communications Decency Act. Very impressive going up against Meta's army of lawyers.
- OkGoDoIt 3y agoSounds like Meta. I once had to solve a Facebook business page issue (another erroneous automated decision) that went unanswered for a year, and the only way I got it moving was to send a legal threat to Meta on a lawyer’s letterhead. Ended up solving the problem within a couple weeks.
- PakG1 3y agoSounds like a lot of online platforms.
- thatoneguy 3y agoSounds like a lot of companies. I got hit by an SUV a few months ago while I was riding my bike and the driver's insurance company said that "they weren't sure he was insured". And then, the day after I filed the police report, all of a sudden they were in a hurry to settle.
- djbusby 3y agoHmm. I have a squatter on an FB name for my trademark company name. Back in ~2006 I had a similar issue. I submitted a request to FB and I got the Page and URL. In 2019, with similar trademark issue I was rejected. This reads like I should escalate, outside of technical channels, to claim our rightfully owned name on their platform.
- dataflow 3y agoCould someone ELI5 this to me? The judge found: > The defendant provided two conflicting reasons for the deletion Isn't this lying under oath? How is it not perjury?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nraynaud 3y agoNot sure small claim uses all this machinery.
- dataflow 3y agoYou're saying you can lie in small claims court?
- nraynaud 3y agothe defendants have special rights in many courts.
- dataflow 3y agoLike what rights that are relevant here? Right to perjury?
- nraynaud 3y agoLike the right to talk outside the penalty of perjury for their defence of course. Since small claims don't have to use actual lawyers, they are not subject to all the enforcement that lawyers are subject to, so I guess the system is not as rigorous. I suppose the discovery is mostly an artesanal process while in a real court it is a highly reagulated thing where the lawyer's ability to work in the future is on the line. For example you don't really have a special agent interrogating the defence in a small claim court, so that's one way for perjury not to be a factor.
- bomewish 3y agoI don’t get this. There was no actual punishment for Facebook — so what will make them change their behaviour? Secondly, how can the lawyers just LIE and say he deleted his account when the company itself must have records of that. If they didn’t have the logs to prove it then they couldn’t have known he deleted it. If they did have logs they could have proven it. So they were lying. Why shouldn’t that be punished with a 100m fine or something utterly crazy? This is just bizarre every way you look at it.
- kibibu 3y agoI'm not a lawyer or even from the US, but is it in the power of small claims to impose a 100m fine??
- canucker2016 3y agofrom https://www.courts.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt471/files/documents/2021-07/scefilinginfo.pdf https://www.courts.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt471/files/docu...: "The maximum amount you can claim in a small claims action is $10,000. If your claim exceeds $5,000, the claim will be subject to mandatory mediation."
- pliftkl 3y agoWell, the punishment for Facebook is twofold: (A) they probably spent 10's of thousands on fighting this in court, and (B) it sets precedent that they are liable for this sort of thing. If they start getting sued regularly in jurisdictions all over the country, then the "pay expensive lawyers a lot a few times" vs "pay some humans to look at complaints many times" may start to come out in the consumer's favor.
- mmvasq 3y agoNeed to talk with this guy. They had the audacity to disable my sister’s privacy takeout so you could not see who was manipulating both her and I. Someone did a real number on her account.
- joecool1029 3y agohttps://archive.is/4vb8K https://archive.is/4vb8K