6 ms·

“ It's to the point where every journal publisher and every editor will tell you, if they're being honest, that they have been and are continually being offered

“ It's to the point where every journal publisher and every editor will tell you, if they're being honest, that they have been and are continually being offered bribes. I would be very suspicious if someone tried to act shocked at the question, as if they'd never heard of such a thing. This is the state of scientific publishing in the 2020s, and we have to realize it. What we don't have to do is accept it.” Well… then start reporting it with names publicly and to authorities…

nativeit 3y ago
> And don't get the idea that it's just Hindawi - how could it be? MDPI journals are mixed up in this, De Gruyter, IMR, AIMS Press and many others as well. Any publisher where people are willing to look the other way.
sickofparadox 3y ago
3 or 4 cases of PHDs losing their positions because of this garbage would likely go a long way towards discouraging these frauds.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  No it won’t - the vast majority of the perpetrators, perhaps rightfully, will think that doesn’t apply to their case because of their instititional politics.
  - canadiantim 3y ago
    I think it's more how the incentives in the system are set up. Unless the incentives change (publish or perish, gatekeeping journals, etc.), then nothing will change.
    - chaxor 3y ago
      This is the real answer. Many of the problems in academia are due to publish or perish. Very many of them.
  - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
    Three or four cases of entire laboratories or departments being shut down for fraud would make a dent.
- rcbdev 3y ago
  Just look at all the high profile academic fraud cases in politics - Von Der Leyen (President of the EU Commission, plagiarized half of her dissertation, zero consequences), Aschbacher (Former Minister in Austria, her thesis was filled with grammatical and logical errors that would've shocked a high school teacher, gets to keep her PhD), Voshmgirs (Founding Director of the Institute for Cryptoeconomics at the Vienna University of Economics, the only one who might actually lose her PhD because of this) As long as the general public does not care nothing will change.
dooopdoop 3y ago
[dead]
bowsamic 3y ago
Authorities? I don't think it's illegal. Also I get roughly 5 offers of "bribes" (of the "special issue" variety) a day, it's an overwhelming situation.
- albino_yak 3y ago
  Exactly. Bribing editors to publish your paper is unethical, it's not breaking any laws. The word "bribe" the has the connotation of secretly paying government officials, which is illegal. But authors paying editors? I don't think that's legally viewed as any different for scientific publications than it is for fiction, where pay-to-publish is an accepted practice. (Disclaimer - IANAL)
  - haswell 3y ago
    The definition of what constitutes bribery is not limited to legal matters or government officials. The legal vs. ethical distinction helps determine what can be done about the bribery, but does not change the nature of the act itself. It’s just that bribing government officials has been (appropriately) deemed problematic enough to make it a legal issue vs. just an ethical one. This scandal may very well provide the impetus to make this kind of bribery illegal too, because of the degree of harm and public interest in that harm.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - theGnuMe 3y ago
    Bribes are illegal in the USA.
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      Science keeps a lot of traditions that would be illegal in most fields. A company wouldn't dare to say publicly "People older than 30 Years can't apply to our job" or "People from NY will be favored, we will not hire people from Louisiana". I see equivalent claims in the Academic field aaaall the time; is pissing on the constitution, and nobody fucking cares.
kashunstva 3y ago
> "every journal publisher and every editor will tell you..." As much as I disdain academic fraud, I'm also deeply suspicious of statements about "every" editor. So I asked my wife, would is a lead editor of a major scientific journal. Her experience is nothing of the kind. Crappy paper-mill papers, plagiarism, etc.? Yes. Flat-out bribes, no.
- a123b456c 3y ago
  Same. I serve in an editorial role for a top journal in my field. I know some foreign universities pay six-figure bonuses to faculty who publish in my journal. I have never been offered anything like a bribe. To my ears, 'every' is hyperbole.
  - InSteady 3y ago
    In addition to the "every publisher" claim, he also states, "And don't get the idea that it's just Hindawi - how could it be? MDPI journals are mixed up in this, De Gruyter, IMR, AIMS Press and many others as well." However, he only provides evidence that something is seriously amiss at Hindawi. The author links to two articles that detail some really shady behavior, but after reading them it doesn't look like he is adding anything new to the discussion beyond speculation and outrage. Well, that, and using his name and platform to amplify the message that it is time to get serious about fraud in scientific publications (which is laudable). This is a serious problem, with the linked articles detailing brazen advertisement of payment for publication by people and organizations who appear to be associated with paper mills. I don't think the takeaway is that we should immediately throw the baby out with the bathwater, but this definitely needs a lot of urgent and sustained attention.
chaxor 3y ago
I know a lab that tried to publish names along with scores for the likelihood that they were h-index hacking. It's a very popular thing to do for more well known scientists. Unfortunately legal teams were very discouraging to do so and publishing that type of thing is hard, so it didn't happen.

nativeit 3y ago

> And don't get the idea that it's just Hindawi - how could it be? MDPI journals are mixed up in this, De Gruyter, IMR, AIMS Press and many others as well. Any publisher where people are willing to look the other way.

sickofparadox 3y ago

3 or 4 cases of PHDs losing their positions because of this garbage would likely go a long way towards discouraging these frauds.

ramraj07 3y ago
No it won’t - the vast majority of the perpetrators, perhaps rightfully, will think that doesn’t apply to their case because of their instititional politics.
- canadiantim 3y ago
  I think it's more how the incentives in the system are set up. Unless the incentives change (publish or perish, gatekeeping journals, etc.), then nothing will change.
  - chaxor 3y ago
    This is the real answer. Many of the problems in academia are due to publish or perish. Very many of them.
- eli_gottlieb 3y ago
  Three or four cases of entire laboratories or departments being shut down for fraud would make a dent.
rcbdev 3y ago
Just look at all the high profile academic fraud cases in politics - Von Der Leyen (President of the EU Commission, plagiarized half of her dissertation, zero consequences), Aschbacher (Former Minister in Austria, her thesis was filled with grammatical and logical errors that would've shocked a high school teacher, gets to keep her PhD), Voshmgirs (Founding Director of the Institute for Cryptoeconomics at the Vienna University of Economics, the only one who might actually lose her PhD because of this) As long as the general public does not care nothing will change.

dooopdoop 3y ago

[dead]

bowsamic 3y ago

Authorities? I don't think it's illegal. Also I get roughly 5 offers of "bribes" (of the "special issue" variety) a day, it's an overwhelming situation.

albino_yak 3y ago
Exactly. Bribing editors to publish your paper is unethical, it's not breaking any laws. The word "bribe" the has the connotation of secretly paying government officials, which is illegal. But authors paying editors? I don't think that's legally viewed as any different for scientific publications than it is for fiction, where pay-to-publish is an accepted practice. (Disclaimer - IANAL)
- haswell 3y ago
  The definition of what constitutes bribery is not limited to legal matters or government officials. The legal vs. ethical distinction helps determine what can be done about the bribery, but does not change the nature of the act itself. It’s just that bribing government officials has been (appropriately) deemed problematic enough to make it a legal issue vs. just an ethical one. This scandal may very well provide the impetus to make this kind of bribery illegal too, because of the degree of harm and public interest in that harm.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  Bribes are illegal in the USA.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    Science keeps a lot of traditions that would be illegal in most fields. A company wouldn't dare to say publicly "People older than 30 Years can't apply to our job" or "People from NY will be favored, we will not hire people from Louisiana". I see equivalent claims in the Academic field aaaall the time; is pissing on the constitution, and nobody fucking cares.

kashunstva 3y ago

> "every journal publisher and every editor will tell you..." As much as I disdain academic fraud, I'm also deeply suspicious of statements about "every" editor. So I asked my wife, would is a lead editor of a major scientific journal. Her experience is nothing of the kind. Crappy paper-mill papers, plagiarism, etc.? Yes. Flat-out bribes, no.

a123b456c 3y ago
Same. I serve in an editorial role for a top journal in my field. I know some foreign universities pay six-figure bonuses to faculty who publish in my journal. I have never been offered anything like a bribe. To my ears, 'every' is hyperbole.
- InSteady 3y ago
  In addition to the "every publisher" claim, he also states, "And don't get the idea that it's just Hindawi - how could it be? MDPI journals are mixed up in this, De Gruyter, IMR, AIMS Press and many others as well." However, he only provides evidence that something is seriously amiss at Hindawi. The author links to two articles that detail some really shady behavior, but after reading them it doesn't look like he is adding anything new to the discussion beyond speculation and outrage. Well, that, and using his name and platform to amplify the message that it is time to get serious about fraud in scientific publications (which is laudable). This is a serious problem, with the linked articles detailing brazen advertisement of payment for publication by people and organizations who appear to be associated with paper mills. I don't think the takeaway is that we should immediately throw the baby out with the bathwater, but this definitely needs a lot of urgent and sustained attention.

chaxor 3y ago

I know a lab that tried to publish names along with scores for the likelihood that they were h-index hacking. It's a very popular thing to do for more well known scientists. Unfortunately legal teams were very discouraging to do so and publishing that type of thing is hard, so it didn't happen.