5 ms·

People have free will; market rate is driven by supply, demand and economics of production and revenue. It's similar to people in the US willing to forfeit thei

People have free will; market rate is driven by supply, demand and economics of production and revenue. It's similar to people in the US willing to forfeit their financial future to see taylor swift live and the reseller market understanding and exploiting the market dynamics. Are the resellers the problem? or is it inevitable when people value the financial security of the rest of their lives less than seeing taylor for one night?

chasing 3y ago
They do have free will, but large groups of people are at an extreme negotiating disadvantage versus individuals or small groups that can more easily plan and coordinate -- and who happen to control the resources. This is why we need things like unions and government regulations: Not to unbalance things in favor of workers but to help achieve some amount of balance between owners and employees.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Agree that these animators should work to unionize if they want to improve their situation. But I think for professions like these, the "they have free will" argument is pretty compelling. If they were being exploited in a low-skill, low-status job, where there are few to no alternatives, sure, definitely an industry that needs worker protections. But no one needs to be an animator at a big anime studio to survive. They're there because they want to be, and many/most/(all?) could find gainful employment in an adjacent industry or field where they'd have better pay. To me it's similar to game development. Game devs famously get paid poorly (compared to other devs) and work under stressful conditions. They don't have to do that. They can get a job as a web developer, or an embedded developer, or... some other kind of developer, and get paid more, and experience less stress. But they want to build games, so that's what they do. I'd definitely support all these folks if they wanted to unionize. But I'm not sure I'm convinced legislation is warranted. (Well, except for strengthening and actually enforcing sanctions against union-busting efforts.)
  - pcwalton 3y ago
    > They're there because they want to be, and many/most/(all?) could find gainful employment in an adjacent industry or field where they'd have better pay. This isn't actually true. Occasionally animators can pivot to UI or graphic design, for example, but often times not. Animation is fairly specialized.
  - astrange 3y ago
    > But no one needs to be an animator at a big anime studio to survive. The problem is mostly in the small studio space, where a lot of them are freelancers. There are a few studios like KyoAni/PA Works/ufotable that use mostly their own employees and pay better.
  - chasing 3y ago
    NBA players work at extremely desirable jobs and make a minimum of, like, $1m per year. And yet they're unionized and have the right to advocate for themselves collectively. There's no "but their job is cool and they could do something else" caveat that makes someone less worthy of professional advocacy.
    - dimgl 3y ago
      This is a false equivalence because there are a limited set of NBA players. Sure lots of people play basketball, but NBA players have gotten to that upper echelon for a variety of reasons such as training, genetics, perseverance, etc. It's simply not the same. There is a surplus of game developers and animators and a league like the NBA for game dev doesn't exist (unless you count working for Valve or other prestigious organizations "the NBA of game development").
- ekianjo 3y ago
  Free will as an individual means that you should be able to make better choices for yourself without having to rely on a hypothetical mafia-style union
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    Unfortunately, the other side of the negotiating table either already has a mafia-style cartel pushing your wages down[0], or is a monopsony already. Consolidation in one industry means everyone who does business with them either consolidates or has their margins go negative. Unions are just the working-class equivalent. As for "mafia-style"... I mean, are we calling Hayao Miyazaki a mob boss now? [0] Remember back in 2010 when Steve Jobs and Larry Page formed a wage fixing cartel?
    - ekianjo 3y ago
      wage fixing to limit the number of figures in existing 6 figures salaries in Silicon Valley? Please, don't make me cry.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        This is a problem in all industries. There's media companies literally trying to starve out striking workers: https://www.lendingtree.com/personal/medical-debt-statistics/ https://www.lendingtree.com/personal/medical-debt-statistics... There's the biggest kind of theft, wage theft: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-us-workers-employees https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-u... On and on, this applies to everyone in every industry.
iosystem 3y ago
[flagged]
- ekianjo 3y ago
  Maybe not free will in philosophical terms as we are all programmed in some way or another by our parents, our education, our environment, etc... but we certainly have enough amount of Free Will to change jobs...
  - astrange 3y ago
    Economics doesn't use "free well" to model labor markets, but it does have search costs and monopsonies. You can't wait for the ideal job to appear because you might starve first.
    - ekianjo 3y ago
      starvation is not a problem in developed countries which is the topic we are talking about here...
      - astrange 3y ago
        Asian welfare states are weaker than you think. The main solution if you can't afford much food is to move back in with your parents. (Also very high rates of young women reporting doing sex work, though I don't know if that's because of poverty.)
        ekianjo 3y ago
        > Asian welfare states are weaker than you think I think I am fairly aware (see profile) and yet most people dont live paycheck to paycheck. the idea that most working class people are just one step away from being thrown in the streets is just a crazy delusion.
        astrange 3y ago

chasing 3y ago

They do have free will, but large groups of people are at an extreme negotiating disadvantage versus individuals or small groups that can more easily plan and coordinate -- and who happen to control the resources. This is why we need things like unions and government regulations: Not to unbalance things in favor of workers but to help achieve some amount of balance between owners and employees.

kelnos 3y ago
Agree that these animators should work to unionize if they want to improve their situation. But I think for professions like these, the "they have free will" argument is pretty compelling. If they were being exploited in a low-skill, low-status job, where there are few to no alternatives, sure, definitely an industry that needs worker protections. But no one needs to be an animator at a big anime studio to survive. They're there because they want to be, and many/most/(all?) could find gainful employment in an adjacent industry or field where they'd have better pay. To me it's similar to game development. Game devs famously get paid poorly (compared to other devs) and work under stressful conditions. They don't have to do that. They can get a job as a web developer, or an embedded developer, or... some other kind of developer, and get paid more, and experience less stress. But they want to build games, so that's what they do. I'd definitely support all these folks if they wanted to unionize. But I'm not sure I'm convinced legislation is warranted. (Well, except for strengthening and actually enforcing sanctions against union-busting efforts.)
- pcwalton 3y ago
  > They're there because they want to be, and many/most/(all?) could find gainful employment in an adjacent industry or field where they'd have better pay. This isn't actually true. Occasionally animators can pivot to UI or graphic design, for example, but often times not. Animation is fairly specialized.
- astrange 3y ago
  > But no one needs to be an animator at a big anime studio to survive. The problem is mostly in the small studio space, where a lot of them are freelancers. There are a few studios like KyoAni/PA Works/ufotable that use mostly their own employees and pay better.
- chasing 3y ago
  NBA players work at extremely desirable jobs and make a minimum of, like, $1m per year. And yet they're unionized and have the right to advocate for themselves collectively. There's no "but their job is cool and they could do something else" caveat that makes someone less worthy of professional advocacy.
  - dimgl 3y ago
    This is a false equivalence because there are a limited set of NBA players. Sure lots of people play basketball, but NBA players have gotten to that upper echelon for a variety of reasons such as training, genetics, perseverance, etc. It's simply not the same. There is a surplus of game developers and animators and a league like the NBA for game dev doesn't exist (unless you count working for Valve or other prestigious organizations "the NBA of game development").
ekianjo 3y ago
Free will as an individual means that you should be able to make better choices for yourself without having to rely on a hypothetical mafia-style union
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  Unfortunately, the other side of the negotiating table either already has a mafia-style cartel pushing your wages down[0], or is a monopsony already. Consolidation in one industry means everyone who does business with them either consolidates or has their margins go negative. Unions are just the working-class equivalent. As for "mafia-style"... I mean, are we calling Hayao Miyazaki a mob boss now? [0] Remember back in 2010 when Steve Jobs and Larry Page formed a wage fixing cartel?
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    wage fixing to limit the number of figures in existing 6 figures salaries in Silicon Valley? Please, don't make me cry.
    - Arainach 3y ago
      This is a problem in all industries. There's media companies literally trying to starve out striking workers: https://www.lendingtree.com/personal/medical-debt-statistics/ https://www.lendingtree.com/personal/medical-debt-statistics... There's the biggest kind of theft, wage theft: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-us-workers-employees https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-u... On and on, this applies to everyone in every industry.

iosystem 3y ago

[flagged]

ekianjo 3y ago
Maybe not free will in philosophical terms as we are all programmed in some way or another by our parents, our education, our environment, etc... but we certainly have enough amount of Free Will to change jobs...
- astrange 3y ago
  Economics doesn't use "free well" to model labor markets, but it does have search costs and monopsonies. You can't wait for the ideal job to appear because you might starve first.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    starvation is not a problem in developed countries which is the topic we are talking about here...
    - astrange 3y ago
      Asian welfare states are weaker than you think. The main solution if you can't afford much food is to move back in with your parents. (Also very high rates of young women reporting doing sex work, though I don't know if that's because of poverty.)
      - ekianjo 3y ago
        > Asian welfare states are weaker than you think I think I am fairly aware (see profile) and yet most people dont live paycheck to paycheck. the idea that most working class people are just one step away from being thrown in the streets is just a crazy delusion.
        astrange 3y ago