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The cognitive dissonance I'm getting from reading the comments here is pretty staggering. Where I live (The Netherlands) me and every IT person I know is gettin

The cognitive dissonance I'm getting from reading the comments here is pretty staggering. Where I live (The Netherlands) me and every IT person I know is getting absolutely hounded by recruiters. As an additional anecdote I'll add that I've just switched jobs to a start-up on very favorable terms and the recruitment process basically amounted to being cold called and asked "hey you wanna work here?". Can anyone here comment on whether this horrible job market is a US specific situation or whether I'm living in some kind of weird bubble?

jorts 3y ago
I would assume many of the comments are anecdotes based on their situation.
ctvo 3y ago
The job market isn't uniformed across all experience level and roles. You didn't specify, but I'm going to assume you're not new in your career. It's just fine in the US for staff engineer+ experience level also. New engineers? Mid levels? Probably less so, and probably similar in The Netherlands.
hotpotamus 3y ago
In my experience as an American working with people in the EU (particularly the UK/Western Europe), the developers there are every bit as capable as Americans and get paid less than half of what an American would - seems like quite a deal to me.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  You’re not including all the taxes that need to be paid and that employment bonds are far more difficult to break. But yeah, EU engineers are very good in my experience.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    In the US there are also taxes and a huge expense in the form of private health insurance - my employer says costs increased 9% this year. I don’t know that it balances, but there are additional costs to employers in the US as well.
    - nemo44x 3y ago
      Indeed - they’re much higher in EU though. Also until recently you could deduct 100% of a USA employees salary for tax reasons and that has recently been changed.
coolThingsFirst 3y ago
A bartender makes same as a software engineer in NL
- seanw444 3y ago
  To be fair, I probably make the same as a bartender here in the US. Blows my mind that people are easily making $120,000+.
  - coolThingsFirst 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - CrackerNews 3y ago
      This is ignoring that there's profit driven enshittification replacing talent with overworked and cheap overseas workers. Increasingly higher salaries are being replaced by cheaper salaries, and the results show in quality.
    - seanw444 3y ago
      According to Indeed, for the high end of bartending in my state, I make less. So I guess I really suck at programming.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - epolanski 3y ago
    The amount of money people give in tips is insane.
- closeparen 3y ago
  Yes, that's what economic equality means.
  - 3y ago
hattmall 3y ago
Think of it as a wave. Right now, the EU is getting a slightly smaller version of the hiring peak of 2 years ago in the US. EU wages are considerably less but the quality is nearly the same. Productivity is a bit lower, but the cost is still advantageous. The goal is to find the cream of the crop before the competition, so a ton of hiring, then assessment and in a year or so reducing the workforce and the wave moves on the next frontier to find the most valuable employees.
- iamflimflam1 3y ago
  > but the quality is nearly the same. Productivity is a bit lower Slightly insulting to European developers? Though I suspect a lot of European developers would say the same about their US colleagues…
  - hattmall 3y ago
    Maybe, but not really, obviously any one individual can have high variance. On a macro level though it's pretty easy to identify trends. The most ambitious European devs will come to America to get the much high salaries. The hiring standards for EU devs are considerably relaxed because of the reduced salary requirements. As a result many of the actively employed EU devs would be in a lesser role than their equally skilled American counterparts which results in the reduced metrics. It's certainly not something any one individual should take personally.
  - wizerdrobe 3y ago
    Don’t Europeans typically work less hours than Americans and do so as a point of pride? I’ve spent over a decade lurking HN, Stack Exchange, later Reddit - and I always seem to see Europeans coming in with the “We work 32 hours at most in my country” or “We have a 35 hour standard here.” Wouldn’t that necessarily imply a reduction in productivity?
    - iamflimflam1 3y ago
      I've worked in the UK, Europe and the US. From my personal experience I haven't seen any difference in the amount of effort, productivity or skill level. Maybe I've just been lucky with the people I've worked with. In one company we had a representative of pretty much every major European country working there along with quite a few guys from the US. Everyone worked hard to get stuff delivered.
obscurette 3y ago
It's many things. For example in Europe the bubble hasn't been so massive and not solely based on VC money. It's still also true for US that full-stack developers with 20 years experience in every technology are in high demand. For two years it was the same for almost every beginner as well, but not any more.
epolanski 3y ago
As an European consultant it feels like Netherlands isn't also super remote prone. Most dutch companies I've seen recruiting want you hybrid and possibly dutch speaking. With such restrictions you're obviously gonna encounter issues hiring and will hammer the restricted pool.
Gigachad 3y ago
I'm in Australia and I get recruiter calls all the time. I've said I'm interested to all of them, and then they just stop talking to me. No idea what's going on. Seems like recruiters are just spamming out first contact messages and then selectively picking the replies they want to respond to.
- siquick 3y ago
  They’re gathering data points for their “Robert Half IT Job Market Q4 2023” report and also keeping their call quotas up.
sakopov 3y ago
I had maybe 3 emails from recruiters in the last year. Used to be a couple every other day. I'm between West coast and Midwest of the US and it seems like hiring is picking up quite a bit in Midwest. Or maybe it's just less competitive and jobs aren't flying off the market like they do on the coasts. With that said I still know a good number of people who have been looking for months and are getting desperate.
qaq 3y ago
A lot of US companies prioritising hiring in EU don't need to pay for medical insurance or it's way cheeper plus wages are way lower.
brailsafe 3y ago
Here in Canada it's pretty hopeless. Basically no prospects on the horizon at all even willing to work on-site.
ideaoverload 3y ago
I am senior developer/data engineer based in Poland. 2021-2022 I was getting remote work offers from all over Europe, some from quite interesting places. Today I am still getting offers but mostly from Poland, lower rates or not disclosed, more boring 'build an ETL' type. There is a definite change but looks like it would still be possible to get a new job quickly, possibly at lower rate.

jorts 3y ago

I would assume many of the comments are anecdotes based on their situation.

ctvo 3y ago

The job market isn't uniformed across all experience level and roles. You didn't specify, but I'm going to assume you're not new in your career. It's just fine in the US for staff engineer+ experience level also. New engineers? Mid levels? Probably less so, and probably similar in The Netherlands.

hotpotamus 3y ago

In my experience as an American working with people in the EU (particularly the UK/Western Europe), the developers there are every bit as capable as Americans and get paid less than half of what an American would - seems like quite a deal to me.

nemo44x 3y ago
You’re not including all the taxes that need to be paid and that employment bonds are far more difficult to break. But yeah, EU engineers are very good in my experience.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  In the US there are also taxes and a huge expense in the form of private health insurance - my employer says costs increased 9% this year. I don’t know that it balances, but there are additional costs to employers in the US as well.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    Indeed - they’re much higher in EU though. Also until recently you could deduct 100% of a USA employees salary for tax reasons and that has recently been changed.

coolThingsFirst 3y ago

A bartender makes same as a software engineer in NL

seanw444 3y ago
To be fair, I probably make the same as a bartender here in the US. Blows my mind that people are easily making $120,000+.
- coolThingsFirst 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - CrackerNews 3y ago
    This is ignoring that there's profit driven enshittification replacing talent with overworked and cheap overseas workers. Increasingly higher salaries are being replaced by cheaper salaries, and the results show in quality.
  - seanw444 3y ago
    According to Indeed, for the high end of bartending in my state, I make less. So I guess I really suck at programming.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- epolanski 3y ago
  The amount of money people give in tips is insane.
closeparen 3y ago
Yes, that's what economic equality means.
- 3y ago

hattmall 3y ago

Think of it as a wave. Right now, the EU is getting a slightly smaller version of the hiring peak of 2 years ago in the US. EU wages are considerably less but the quality is nearly the same. Productivity is a bit lower, but the cost is still advantageous. The goal is to find the cream of the crop before the competition, so a ton of hiring, then assessment and in a year or so reducing the workforce and the wave moves on the next frontier to find the most valuable employees.

iamflimflam1 3y ago
> but the quality is nearly the same. Productivity is a bit lower Slightly insulting to European developers? Though I suspect a lot of European developers would say the same about their US colleagues…
- hattmall 3y ago
  Maybe, but not really, obviously any one individual can have high variance. On a macro level though it's pretty easy to identify trends. The most ambitious European devs will come to America to get the much high salaries. The hiring standards for EU devs are considerably relaxed because of the reduced salary requirements. As a result many of the actively employed EU devs would be in a lesser role than their equally skilled American counterparts which results in the reduced metrics. It's certainly not something any one individual should take personally.
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  Don’t Europeans typically work less hours than Americans and do so as a point of pride? I’ve spent over a decade lurking HN, Stack Exchange, later Reddit - and I always seem to see Europeans coming in with the “We work 32 hours at most in my country” or “We have a 35 hour standard here.” Wouldn’t that necessarily imply a reduction in productivity?
  - iamflimflam1 3y ago
    I've worked in the UK, Europe and the US. From my personal experience I haven't seen any difference in the amount of effort, productivity or skill level. Maybe I've just been lucky with the people I've worked with. In one company we had a representative of pretty much every major European country working there along with quite a few guys from the US. Everyone worked hard to get stuff delivered.

obscurette 3y ago

It's many things. For example in Europe the bubble hasn't been so massive and not solely based on VC money. It's still also true for US that full-stack developers with 20 years experience in every technology are in high demand. For two years it was the same for almost every beginner as well, but not any more.

epolanski 3y ago

As an European consultant it feels like Netherlands isn't also super remote prone. Most dutch companies I've seen recruiting want you hybrid and possibly dutch speaking. With such restrictions you're obviously gonna encounter issues hiring and will hammer the restricted pool.

Gigachad 3y ago

I'm in Australia and I get recruiter calls all the time. I've said I'm interested to all of them, and then they just stop talking to me. No idea what's going on. Seems like recruiters are just spamming out first contact messages and then selectively picking the replies they want to respond to.

siquick 3y ago
They’re gathering data points for their “Robert Half IT Job Market Q4 2023” report and also keeping their call quotas up.

sakopov 3y ago

I had maybe 3 emails from recruiters in the last year. Used to be a couple every other day. I'm between West coast and Midwest of the US and it seems like hiring is picking up quite a bit in Midwest. Or maybe it's just less competitive and jobs aren't flying off the market like they do on the coasts. With that said I still know a good number of people who have been looking for months and are getting desperate.

qaq 3y ago

A lot of US companies prioritising hiring in EU don't need to pay for medical insurance or it's way cheeper plus wages are way lower.

brailsafe 3y ago

Here in Canada it's pretty hopeless. Basically no prospects on the horizon at all even willing to work on-site.

ideaoverload 3y ago

I am senior developer/data engineer based in Poland. 2021-2022 I was getting remote work offers from all over Europe, some from quite interesting places. Today I am still getting offers but mostly from Poland, lower rates or not disclosed, more boring 'build an ETL' type. There is a definite change but looks like it would still be possible to get a new job quickly, possibly at lower rate.