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I use PWAs extensively and Firefox decided they won't bother to implement them, so that's going to be a no from me. Rather than wanting the web platform to be

I use PWAs extensively and Firefox decided they won't bother to implement them, so that's going to be a no from me. Rather than wanting the web platform to be first class, they really want it to languish as a second-class citizen. Really sad, seeing as they also fired devs, and invested in "AI" instead.

crazygringo 3y ago
Indeed: > Firefox and Safari do not support installing PWAs on any desktop operating systems... Chrome and Edge support installing PWAs on Linux, Windows, macOS, and Chromebooks. [1] Any idea what Mozilla's motivation is here? (Apple's at least is easy to understand, even if you disagree.) [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps/Guides/Making_PWAs_installable#sites-as-apps https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...
- TheFuzzball 3y ago
  > Firefox and Safari do not support installing PWAs on any desktop operating systems... Chrome and Edge support installing PWAs on Linux, Windows, macOS, and Chromebooks. That's not actually true, MDN needs updating. PWAs are installable as standalone apps since macOS Sonoma and Safari 17 - https://webkit.org/blog/14445/webkit-features-in-safari-17-0/#:~:text=Web%20apps%20on%20Mac https://webkit.org/blog/14445/webkit-features-in-safari-17-0....
- fsflover 3y ago
  There are workarounds for using Firefox web apps: https://forums.puri.sm/t/firefox-web-apps/21499/ https://forums.puri.sm/t/firefox-web-apps/21499/
charlesabarnes 3y ago
I have tried to switch out of curiosity, but the lack of PWA support in addition to missing features like WebUSB really limits how useful the browser is to me.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  When I need webusb or webserial, I use edge or chrome. So far, that's been twice, ever. I don't know anything in detail about those protocols though, and don't know why Firefox doesn't have them.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
I like to see Firefox the browser as something that will have a life independent of Mozilla the (crappily managed) corporation. When they finally go down in flames, the open source community will continue to work on it in some fashion. It started as a skunkworks project, and I expect it will continue to have a life after Mozilla. That, or something else will fill the void (maybe something built off Servo, I dunno), but that seems less likely.
freedomben 3y ago
we really need a wealthy tech founder type (especially one who made their millions or billions on the web) to start a new foundation that will actually care about Firefox rather than see it as a liability. Mozilla has completely lost my trust and support
bluescrn 3y ago
What's the real use case of PWAs? They just seem like another way to attempt to shift users from the 'proper web' into a place where blocking ads is more difficult. Personally, I wish we could purge the vast majority of 'apps' from the world, they shouldn't be apps in the first place, most have no need to run native code, they should be links to websites, sites that can work on more-or-less any device in any browser.
- codebrrr 3y ago
  On Windows the Twitter, Instagram, TikTok apps are PWAs. I like to use them because I can pin them to the start menu, have them start on a separate window by default and remember the window position.
- toyg 3y ago
  > What's the real use case of PWAs? Letting companies save money while still claiming they have "desktop apps".
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  > They just seem like another way to attempt to shift users from the 'proper web' into a place where blocking ads is more difficult. Extensions still run in PWAs on Chromium-based browsers, so I'm not sure that's the intent behind implementing them. > Personally, I wish we could purge the vast majority of 'apps' from the world Out of curiosity, where do you draw the distinction between an app and a website? PWAs are largely just websites with an OS shortcut, and in some cases more integration via platform APIs. I'm sure you're familiar with the term "web app", which perfectly highlights how muddied the line is with modern tooling.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  I used to be the maintainer for Nativefier (which made web apps into native apps via Electron). It was very popular because many people don’t want certain sites to be one of X tabs in one app, especially when those sites act like they’re own apps. So we gave users the ability to treat these web “apps” like any other apps. We actually shut down the project because a good PWA implementation does this better than we ever could. PWAs can have extensions like ad blockers (very difficult to impossible in Electron). PWAs get automatic browser updates (very difficult with Electron). PWAs are great, and FF’s implementation of them is not.
wkat4242 3y ago
I personally hate PWAs even the ones I use on mobile (with firefox). Not being able to open a link in a second tab for example. I much rather just open the web app in a normal browser. PWAs just seem to reduce functionality over a normal web page.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  Poorly built ones, sure. But in all fairness, it’s easier to build one poorly, and there isn’t much incentive not to.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Curious, can you give some examples of PWAs you use, and why? I've rarely seen any benefit of actually installing a PWA vs just bookmarking the site. On mobile, I could see privacy reasons for wanting to use a PWA vs a native app, but every time I've seen a site that supports a PWA, they also support a native app and the PWA is usually a sad substitute in comparison.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Along those lines, does macOS 14's Safari's support for "Add to Dock" count as installing a PWA? I have a couple frequently used websites in my dock, acting more or less like regular Mac apps (or at least like Electron apps). What would a "proper" PWA add to that? (Not a leading question. I'm genuinely asking people who like and use PWAs: is there something cool I'm missing out on?)
  - dutchCourage 3y ago
    You're correct. I'm actually not sure what installing a PWA does that visiting the website in your browser doesn't, but it's essentially opening the website in a headless browser. So very much like electron except instead of having to bundle the browser in the executable it uses your machine's browser.
    - chuckadams 3y ago
      > headless browser I think you mean chromeless (an amusingly confusing term when it's chrome hosting the PWA). If it were headless, you wouldn't see anything at all.
      - dutchCourage 3y ago
        Ah indeed I mixed up the two.
- TheFuzzball 3y ago
  I use PWAs for YouTube Music, Slack, and Readwise Reader. Sometimes there is a standalone app available, like with Slack, but often the PWA has the same features and doesn't duplicate the entire Web Platform stack (Electron), which saves some battery.
andrewaylett 3y ago
It's decidedly non-ideal that it requires an extension and a native helper, but https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/pwas-for-firefox/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/pwas-for-fire... works.
gitaarik 3y ago
I didn't follow this PWA stuff very closely, but from what I understand, Mozilla didn't want to implement the PWA protocol proposed by Google because it contained things that weren't compatible with the open web view focused on the benefit of the users which Firefox has. I'm happy there is a browser that takes this stance.

crazygringo 3y ago

Indeed: > Firefox and Safari do not support installing PWAs on any desktop operating systems... Chrome and Edge support installing PWAs on Linux, Windows, macOS, and Chromebooks. [1] Any idea what Mozilla's motivation is here? (Apple's at least is easy to understand, even if you disagree.) [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps/Guides/Making_PWAs_installable#sites-as-apps https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

TheFuzzball 3y ago
> Firefox and Safari do not support installing PWAs on any desktop operating systems... Chrome and Edge support installing PWAs on Linux, Windows, macOS, and Chromebooks. That's not actually true, MDN needs updating. PWAs are installable as standalone apps since macOS Sonoma and Safari 17 - https://webkit.org/blog/14445/webkit-features-in-safari-17-0/#:~:text=Web%20apps%20on%20Mac https://webkit.org/blog/14445/webkit-features-in-safari-17-0....
fsflover 3y ago
There are workarounds for using Firefox web apps: https://forums.puri.sm/t/firefox-web-apps/21499/ https://forums.puri.sm/t/firefox-web-apps/21499/

charlesabarnes 3y ago

I have tried to switch out of curiosity, but the lack of PWA support in addition to missing features like WebUSB really limits how useful the browser is to me.

unethical_ban 3y ago
When I need webusb or webserial, I use edge or chrome. So far, that's been twice, ever. I don't know anything in detail about those protocols though, and don't know why Firefox doesn't have them.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

I like to see Firefox the browser as something that will have a life independent of Mozilla the (crappily managed) corporation. When they finally go down in flames, the open source community will continue to work on it in some fashion. It started as a skunkworks project, and I expect it will continue to have a life after Mozilla. That, or something else will fill the void (maybe something built off Servo, I dunno), but that seems less likely.

freedomben 3y ago

we really need a wealthy tech founder type (especially one who made their millions or billions on the web) to start a new foundation that will actually care about Firefox rather than see it as a liability. Mozilla has completely lost my trust and support

bluescrn 3y ago

What's the real use case of PWAs? They just seem like another way to attempt to shift users from the 'proper web' into a place where blocking ads is more difficult. Personally, I wish we could purge the vast majority of 'apps' from the world, they shouldn't be apps in the first place, most have no need to run native code, they should be links to websites, sites that can work on more-or-less any device in any browser.

codebrrr 3y ago
On Windows the Twitter, Instagram, TikTok apps are PWAs. I like to use them because I can pin them to the start menu, have them start on a separate window by default and remember the window position.
toyg 3y ago
> What's the real use case of PWAs? Letting companies save money while still claiming they have "desktop apps".
tentacleuno 3y ago
> They just seem like another way to attempt to shift users from the 'proper web' into a place where blocking ads is more difficult. Extensions still run in PWAs on Chromium-based browsers, so I'm not sure that's the intent behind implementing them. > Personally, I wish we could purge the vast majority of 'apps' from the world Out of curiosity, where do you draw the distinction between an app and a website? PWAs are largely just websites with an OS shortcut, and in some cases more integration via platform APIs. I'm sure you're familiar with the term "web app", which perfectly highlights how muddied the line is with modern tooling.
TheCleric 3y ago
I used to be the maintainer for Nativefier (which made web apps into native apps via Electron). It was very popular because many people don’t want certain sites to be one of X tabs in one app, especially when those sites act like they’re own apps. So we gave users the ability to treat these web “apps” like any other apps. We actually shut down the project because a good PWA implementation does this better than we ever could. PWAs can have extensions like ad blockers (very difficult to impossible in Electron). PWAs get automatic browser updates (very difficult with Electron). PWAs are great, and FF’s implementation of them is not.

wkat4242 3y ago

I personally hate PWAs even the ones I use on mobile (with firefox). Not being able to open a link in a second tab for example. I much rather just open the web app in a normal browser. PWAs just seem to reduce functionality over a normal web page.

mock-possum 3y ago
Poorly built ones, sure. But in all fairness, it’s easier to build one poorly, and there isn’t much incentive not to.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

Curious, can you give some examples of PWAs you use, and why? I've rarely seen any benefit of actually installing a PWA vs just bookmarking the site. On mobile, I could see privacy reasons for wanting to use a PWA vs a native app, but every time I've seen a site that supports a PWA, they also support a native app and the PWA is usually a sad substitute in comparison.

kstrauser 3y ago
Along those lines, does macOS 14's Safari's support for "Add to Dock" count as installing a PWA? I have a couple frequently used websites in my dock, acting more or less like regular Mac apps (or at least like Electron apps). What would a "proper" PWA add to that? (Not a leading question. I'm genuinely asking people who like and use PWAs: is there something cool I'm missing out on?)
- dutchCourage 3y ago
  You're correct. I'm actually not sure what installing a PWA does that visiting the website in your browser doesn't, but it's essentially opening the website in a headless browser. So very much like electron except instead of having to bundle the browser in the executable it uses your machine's browser.
  - chuckadams 3y ago
    > headless browser I think you mean chromeless (an amusingly confusing term when it's chrome hosting the PWA). If it were headless, you wouldn't see anything at all.
    - dutchCourage 3y ago
      Ah indeed I mixed up the two.
TheFuzzball 3y ago
I use PWAs for YouTube Music, Slack, and Readwise Reader. Sometimes there is a standalone app available, like with Slack, but often the PWA has the same features and doesn't duplicate the entire Web Platform stack (Electron), which saves some battery.

andrewaylett 3y ago

It's decidedly non-ideal that it requires an extension and a native helper, but https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/pwas-for-firefox/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/pwas-for-fire... works.

gitaarik 3y ago

I didn't follow this PWA stuff very closely, but from what I understand, Mozilla didn't want to implement the PWA protocol proposed by Google because it contained things that weren't compatible with the open web view focused on the benefit of the users which Firefox has. I'm happy there is a browser that takes this stance.