6 ms·

Light-induced whole-molecule vibration can rupture melanoma cells’ membrane

172 points by leothekim 3y ago

adamredwoods 3y ago
previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38701381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38701381
Austizzle 3y ago
The real question is always "but how good is it at killing non-cancer cells?" A bullet fired from a gun would be great at killing cancer cells too. Although in this case it seems like it's just an alternative to surgery, rather than a cancer cure? Just a way of vibrating cells in a certain location to death? Does anybody who actually understands medicine know if this is a great breakthrough or not?
- H8crilA 3y ago
  Every single cancer treatment is about destroying cancer cells. Given the clickbait level of the headline it's clear that it is not worth clicking.
  - inkcapmushroom 3y ago
    >Given the clickbait level of the headline That is not a clickbait headline, it's very descriptive of the contents of the article. Clickbait would be like "Crazy new cancer cure will literally punch cancer cells to death! You won't believe it!"
    - H8crilA 3y ago
      Title was changed.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  If I understood it correctly, the "hammers" seek (or are coupled with a system that attach mainly to) the cancer cells, so they destroy it later. Looks like a clever system.
- _nalply 3y ago
  These chemicals were used to detect cancer cells by coloring them. Now it seems that they don't only color specifically, but with the help of infrared light they can even destroy. As far as I know these coloring chemicals are very specific for cancer types. This means perhaps they are a cure but not for all cancer types. Or the chemicals are poisonous and typically only used on biopsies. Or they are not specific enough. I don't know. We will see whether it is THE miraculous cure. I am afraid not, but let's hope. EDIT: let's cite: > Aminocyanine molecules are already used in bioimaging as synthetic dyes. Commonly used in low doses to detect cancer, they stay stable in water and are very good at attaching themselves to the outside of cells.
- benjijay 3y ago
  I am not a biologist but I've known a few in my time; It is highly unlikely there will ever be a singular "cure for cancer" as cancer is a bit of a blanket term given to multiple diseases, however this is a seemingly reasonably good breakthrough in treatment - being able to destroy cancerous cells without exposing the patient to further harm via targeted radiation or harsh chemo drugs (basically targeted poisoning) feels like a win. If we can break the cells down and let the body's immune system take care of the remnants instead of having to slice someone open, huge win!
  - once_inc 3y ago
    > It is highly unlikely there will ever be a singular "cure for cancer" as cancer is a bit of a blanket term given to multiple diseases, "It doesn't make sense to say 'cure for cancer.' Cancer is a wide variety of disorders with different manifestations and etiology. It makes as much sense as saying 'a cure for virus'." > https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-11-21 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-11-21
    - unsupp0rted 3y ago
      An enhanced immune system would functionally be a “cure for virus”. It’s conceivable we could find a technique that targets and ruptures any cancer cell, functionally becoming a “cure for cancer”.
      - stvltvs 3y ago
        Which could increase the risk for autoimmune disease. Current immunotherapy treatments for cancer that I'm aware of have to be carefully monitored so they don't kill the patient.
  - dghughes 3y ago
    Or better yet find out how to prevent cancers since it's better to not be sick than to treat you once you are sick. Things like the HPV vaccine which in my province saw a 90% drop in just a few years. I think everyone should get it no questions asked which maybe they don't anymore? The Hepatitis B vaccine too since having the disease is a cause of liver cancer. But if all else fails it's also good to have a tools to try to get rid of cancers.
- mo_42 3y ago
  I had the same question when reading this. They use the light only at places where cancerous cells were found plus some safety margin I guess. In that sense it's an alternative to surgery.
  - adamredwoods 3y ago
    Essentially correct. They use near-infra red light, which can only penetrate about 3cm of skin, so this is not a complete replacement to surgery. New modern chemotherapy (anti-body drug conjugates) are also similar to how it "adheres" to cancer cells, by binding to specific cell expression. It's not re-inventing this technology, just finding a new way to leverage it. The drug will also bind to normal cells, but by directing light to a specific area the goal is to minimize damage and side effects.
- sungam 3y ago
  It is a long way off clinical application but could potentially be useful for treatment of "in transit" metastases - e.g. multiple metastases spreading from a distal site on a limb and growing on the skin. At the moment these are usually removed surgically or treated with electrochemotherapy. Unlikely to replace conventional treatments such as immunotherapy (checkpoint inhibitors), targeted inhibitors (BRAF/MEK) or emerging treatments such as personalised mRNA vaccines. (Lead clinician for the melanoma multidisciplinary team at a major teaching hospital in London for what it's worth)
- onetimeuse92304 3y ago
  We are currently using radiation therapy which focuses gamma rays on a piece of tissue with cancer cells to kill it. If you can do the same but instead of gamma rays use infrared, even if it kills indiscriminately, that should still be a net positive, don't you think? And the main benefit here is that you can get these molecules into specific cells which in theory should allow killing cells based on some chemical characteristic.
- ta988 3y ago
  https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/
- mcint 3y ago
  Even if this just becomes chemotherapy but locally activated by near-infrared light, that would be great. It means, at worst, don't go outside or be in bright sun-lit spaces, but also, we can shine a flashlight on where the cancer is to kill it. Even if it weren't very selective (which could be adjusted with other targeting molecules), light-trigged theraputics are easy to understand the propagation of.
hasoleju 3y ago
> Near-infrared light can go as deep as 10 centimeters (~ 4 inches) into the human body. This attribute of the infrared light is key to treating cancer anywhere in the human body with this method. As long as the patient is not obese, I assume 10 centimeters of penetration depth are enough to reach any part of the body. Penetration depth and the precision of the desired effect is something that is very important in radiation therapy as well. With radiation therapy you basically shoot small particles at the cancer cells but you also damage surroundings if you don't aim precisely enough. Dependig on the depth of the cancer cells inside the body, different particles are used. The amount of damage the particles deal depends on physical effects. Photons deal most of the damage on the surface. More heavy particles like alpha particles deal most of the damage once they are slowed down inside the body. (See Bragg peak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_peak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_peak ).
- stvltvs 3y ago
  > as deep as I wonder if this is affected by tissue types, e.g. bone.
  - tsavo 3y ago
    Near Infrared (NIR) is affected by tissue type. It's light, different densities of a substance, along with what that substance may be comprised, will influence the rate of absorption of the light by a substance and reduction in light penetration.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  With laparoscopy, you can penetrate patients of all sizes with instruments, and with minimal danger.
all2 3y ago
I suppose I should mention the much maligned Royal Raymond Rife who stumbled onto this same phenomena over a century ago.
joshuahaglund 3y ago
How many times have we found a new medical use for an existing dye? Prontosil was a pre-penicillin antibacterial based on azo dyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prontosil#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prontosil#History Brilliant blue, a food coloring, was found to help repair spinal injuries https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6719612/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6719612/
- foobiekr 3y ago
  The blue dye seems to have gone nowhere since the initial study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomassie_brilliant_blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomassie_brilliant_blue
- adonovan 3y ago
  And the first antibiotic was inspired by the observation that dye stuck to bacteria better than other things! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich
xkcd-sucks 3y ago
> whole-molecule vibration Heating it up > Light-induced with IR light (IR penetrates tissue much better than visible/UV and it's cheaper than microwaves/RF) > can rupture melanoma cells’ membrane you can cook cancer to death, surprise. The big deal is not cooking everything else, ~~here accomplished with a targeted sensitizer dye that localizes to just those cells~~ Nope, no targeting at all. The advance here is just a new class of IR absorbing dyes that have some cool chemical properties that lend themselves particularly well to disrupting lipid membranes. The reason it's billed as a cancer treatment is because the authors get funding from NIH not NSF, more or less

172 points by leothekim 3y ago

previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38701381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38701381

The real question is always "but how good is it at killing non-cancer cells?" A bullet fired from a gun would be great at killing cancer cells too. Although in this case it seems like it's just an alternative to surgery, rather than a cancer cure? Just a way of vibrating cells in a certain location to death? Does anybody who actually understands medicine know if this is a great breakthrough or not?

H8crilA 3y ago
Every single cancer treatment is about destroying cancer cells. Given the clickbait level of the headline it's clear that it is not worth clicking.
- inkcapmushroom 3y ago
  >Given the clickbait level of the headline That is not a clickbait headline, it's very descriptive of the contents of the article. Clickbait would be like "Crazy new cancer cure will literally punch cancer cells to death! You won't believe it!"
  - H8crilA 3y ago
    Title was changed.
pvaldes 3y ago
If I understood it correctly, the "hammers" seek (or are coupled with a system that attach mainly to) the cancer cells, so they destroy it later. Looks like a clever system.
_nalply 3y ago
These chemicals were used to detect cancer cells by coloring them. Now it seems that they don't only color specifically, but with the help of infrared light they can even destroy. As far as I know these coloring chemicals are very specific for cancer types. This means perhaps they are a cure but not for all cancer types. Or the chemicals are poisonous and typically only used on biopsies. Or they are not specific enough. I don't know. We will see whether it is THE miraculous cure. I am afraid not, but let's hope. EDIT: let's cite: > Aminocyanine molecules are already used in bioimaging as synthetic dyes. Commonly used in low doses to detect cancer, they stay stable in water and are very good at attaching themselves to the outside of cells.
benjijay 3y ago
I am not a biologist but I've known a few in my time; It is highly unlikely there will ever be a singular "cure for cancer" as cancer is a bit of a blanket term given to multiple diseases, however this is a seemingly reasonably good breakthrough in treatment - being able to destroy cancerous cells without exposing the patient to further harm via targeted radiation or harsh chemo drugs (basically targeted poisoning) feels like a win. If we can break the cells down and let the body's immune system take care of the remnants instead of having to slice someone open, huge win!
- once_inc 3y ago
  > It is highly unlikely there will ever be a singular "cure for cancer" as cancer is a bit of a blanket term given to multiple diseases, "It doesn't make sense to say 'cure for cancer.' Cancer is a wide variety of disorders with different manifestations and etiology. It makes as much sense as saying 'a cure for virus'." > https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-11-21 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-11-21
  - unsupp0rted 3y ago
    An enhanced immune system would functionally be a “cure for virus”. It’s conceivable we could find a technique that targets and ruptures any cancer cell, functionally becoming a “cure for cancer”.
    - stvltvs 3y ago
      Which could increase the risk for autoimmune disease. Current immunotherapy treatments for cancer that I'm aware of have to be carefully monitored so they don't kill the patient.
- dghughes 3y ago
  Or better yet find out how to prevent cancers since it's better to not be sick than to treat you once you are sick. Things like the HPV vaccine which in my province saw a 90% drop in just a few years. I think everyone should get it no questions asked which maybe they don't anymore? The Hepatitis B vaccine too since having the disease is a cause of liver cancer. But if all else fails it's also good to have a tools to try to get rid of cancers.
mo_42 3y ago
I had the same question when reading this. They use the light only at places where cancerous cells were found plus some safety margin I guess. In that sense it's an alternative to surgery.
- adamredwoods 3y ago
  Essentially correct. They use near-infra red light, which can only penetrate about 3cm of skin, so this is not a complete replacement to surgery. New modern chemotherapy (anti-body drug conjugates) are also similar to how it "adheres" to cancer cells, by binding to specific cell expression. It's not re-inventing this technology, just finding a new way to leverage it. The drug will also bind to normal cells, but by directing light to a specific area the goal is to minimize damage and side effects.
sungam 3y ago
It is a long way off clinical application but could potentially be useful for treatment of "in transit" metastases - e.g. multiple metastases spreading from a distal site on a limb and growing on the skin. At the moment these are usually removed surgically or treated with electrochemotherapy. Unlikely to replace conventional treatments such as immunotherapy (checkpoint inhibitors), targeted inhibitors (BRAF/MEK) or emerging treatments such as personalised mRNA vaccines. (Lead clinician for the melanoma multidisciplinary team at a major teaching hospital in London for what it's worth)
onetimeuse92304 3y ago
We are currently using radiation therapy which focuses gamma rays on a piece of tissue with cancer cells to kill it. If you can do the same but instead of gamma rays use infrared, even if it kills indiscriminately, that should still be a net positive, don't you think? And the main benefit here is that you can get these molecules into specific cells which in theory should allow killing cells based on some chemical characteristic.
ta988 3y ago
https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/
mcint 3y ago
Even if this just becomes chemotherapy but locally activated by near-infrared light, that would be great. It means, at worst, don't go outside or be in bright sun-lit spaces, but also, we can shine a flashlight on where the cancer is to kill it. Even if it weren't very selective (which could be adjusted with other targeting molecules), light-trigged theraputics are easy to understand the propagation of.

hasoleju 3y ago

> Near-infrared light can go as deep as 10 centimeters (~ 4 inches) into the human body. This attribute of the infrared light is key to treating cancer anywhere in the human body with this method. As long as the patient is not obese, I assume 10 centimeters of penetration depth are enough to reach any part of the body. Penetration depth and the precision of the desired effect is something that is very important in radiation therapy as well. With radiation therapy you basically shoot small particles at the cancer cells but you also damage surroundings if you don't aim precisely enough. Dependig on the depth of the cancer cells inside the body, different particles are used. The amount of damage the particles deal depends on physical effects. Photons deal most of the damage on the surface. More heavy particles like alpha particles deal most of the damage once they are slowed down inside the body. (See Bragg peak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_peak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_peak ).

stvltvs 3y ago
> as deep as I wonder if this is affected by tissue types, e.g. bone.
- tsavo 3y ago
  Near Infrared (NIR) is affected by tissue type. It's light, different densities of a substance, along with what that substance may be comprised, will influence the rate of absorption of the light by a substance and reduction in light penetration.
inglor_cz 3y ago
With laparoscopy, you can penetrate patients of all sizes with instruments, and with minimal danger.

all2 3y ago

I suppose I should mention the much maligned Royal Raymond Rife who stumbled onto this same phenomena over a century ago.

joshuahaglund 3y ago

How many times have we found a new medical use for an existing dye? Prontosil was a pre-penicillin antibacterial based on azo dyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prontosil#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prontosil#History Brilliant blue, a food coloring, was found to help repair spinal injuries https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6719612/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6719612/

foobiekr 3y ago
The blue dye seems to have gone nowhere since the initial study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomassie_brilliant_blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomassie_brilliant_blue
adonovan 3y ago
And the first antibiotic was inspired by the observation that dye stuck to bacteria better than other things! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ehrlich

xkcd-sucks 3y ago

> whole-molecule vibration Heating it up > Light-induced with IR light (IR penetrates tissue much better than visible/UV and it's cheaper than microwaves/RF) > can rupture melanoma cells’ membrane you can cook cancer to death, surprise. The big deal is not cooking everything else, ~~here accomplished with a targeted sensitizer dye that localizes to just those cells~~ Nope, no targeting at all. The advance here is just a new class of IR absorbing dyes that have some cool chemical properties that lend themselves particularly well to disrupting lipid membranes. The reason it's billed as a cancer treatment is because the authors get funding from NIH not NSF, more or less