10 ms·

> Doesn't the union have a vote to decide these things This was decided by Seko's union board, the union that covers most PostNord and other delivery companies

> Doesn't the union have a vote to decide these things This was decided by Seko's union board, the union that covers most PostNord and other delivery companies employees > PostNord says it can't force it's workers to do something It is illegal to prevent a strike, yes > So if it's not the workers decision it's PostNord's decision and that is very different It's the unions decision https://www-seko-se.translate.goog/press-och-aktuellt/nyheter/2023/seko-stoppar-brev-och-paket-till-tesla/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-seko-se.translate.goog/press-och-aktuellt/nyhete... https://www.seko.se/siteassets/pdf-seko.se/avtal/konflikt/faq_sympatiatgarder_postnord_citymail_2023.pdf?ts=8dbe5f0fb0e7e80 https://www.seko.se/siteassets/pdf-seko.se/avtal/konflikt/fa...

that_guy_iain 3y ago
So what you're saying is the union is forcing them to not deliver to Tesla?
- piva00 3y ago
  The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. Stop thinking about Nordic unions as a boogeyman, a mafia, or whatever other "oppressive" figure you want to make them out to be, the way unions work here is different than what you are probably used to. It's a cornerstone on how the labour market functions in the Nordics...
  - gruez 3y ago
    >The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. That's a strange way of putting it. Is the us federal government notification not "forcing" anyone to pay taxes, or not smoke weed, because the us is a democracy and therefore it's "collective action"?
    - piva00 3y ago
      What? I really do not understand the analogy, would be good to expand on how it relates to the current situation.
      - gruez 3y ago
        If you support taxes (or striking) and the government (or the union) forces you to pay taxes (or strike), you're not being "forced". So far so good. But what if you don't support taxes (or striking)? You might think taxes are a good thing and are necessary for a functioning society, but it's still pretty clear that for someone that doesn't want to pay taxes, they're forced to pay taxes.
        SiempreViernes 3y ago
        >If [...] the government [...] forces you to pay taxes [...], you're not being "forced". So far so good. Wat? In a discussion about if someone is being forced to take an action, consider not overloading the string "forced" with several meanings.
        gruez 3y ago
        Saying something isn't "forced" is the opposite of "overloading the string "forced" with several meanings". Also, in the broader context of this argument, I'm for an more expansive definition of "forced" and replying to someone who thinks whatever the union is doing isn't "forcing" anyone. Therefore I'm actually granting my opponent some leeway. If you think the above circumstance also counts as "forced", that actually supports my claim that whatever the union is doing is "forcing" people.
        SiempreViernes 3y ago
        Sorry, that also doesn't parse into a comprehensible argument shrugs
        xorcist 3y ago
- soco 3y ago
  As difficult as it might be to wrap our heads around it, no, there's no forcing, but it's the workers' collective decision as a union to not deliver to Tesla. A union is not some god-given abstract concept, it's a assembly of elected members of the workers which collectively voted to proceed this way. So the only "forcing" you could talk about is Tesla forcing them to accept unacceptable conditions, and even this wouldn't be really "forcing" - as we can see there are two parties negotiating their rights, all within their powers.
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    As difficult as it is to wrap our heads around. If no one is forcing them not to do it, it is their decision not to. So when they say employees decision it's true.
    - surgical_fire 3y ago
      Collectively, not individually.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  Forcing is a strong word here. If you're a member of a union and the union says please don't do X, and you're aligned with the union, then you will be happy to not do X. This isn't a forceful action nor is it the workers decision, it's this greyish thing between the black and white. The members of the union could have a vote and change direction to do X if they wanted, but why would workers defend a company trying to get around a model that's resulted in one of the best working environments in the world?
- geon 3y ago
  The whole point as that no one is forced. Just like strike breakers worked for tesla, they could work for postnord. Of course, postnord is free to not accept strike breakers.

that_guy_iain 3y ago

So what you're saying is the union is forcing them to not deliver to Tesla?

piva00 3y ago
The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. Stop thinking about Nordic unions as a boogeyman, a mafia, or whatever other "oppressive" figure you want to make them out to be, the way unions work here is different than what you are probably used to. It's a cornerstone on how the labour market functions in the Nordics...
- gruez 3y ago
  >The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. That's a strange way of putting it. Is the us federal government notification not "forcing" anyone to pay taxes, or not smoke weed, because the us is a democracy and therefore it's "collective action"?
  - piva00 3y ago
    What? I really do not understand the analogy, would be good to expand on how it relates to the current situation.
    - gruez 3y ago
      If you support taxes (or striking) and the government (or the union) forces you to pay taxes (or strike), you're not being "forced". So far so good. But what if you don't support taxes (or striking)? You might think taxes are a good thing and are necessary for a functioning society, but it's still pretty clear that for someone that doesn't want to pay taxes, they're forced to pay taxes.
      - SiempreViernes 3y ago
        >If [...] the government [...] forces you to pay taxes [...], you're not being "forced". So far so good. Wat? In a discussion about if someone is being forced to take an action, consider not overloading the string "forced" with several meanings.
        gruez 3y ago
        Saying something isn't "forced" is the opposite of "overloading the string "forced" with several meanings". Also, in the broader context of this argument, I'm for an more expansive definition of "forced" and replying to someone who thinks whatever the union is doing isn't "forcing" anyone. Therefore I'm actually granting my opponent some leeway. If you think the above circumstance also counts as "forced", that actually supports my claim that whatever the union is doing is "forcing" people.
        SiempreViernes 3y ago
        Sorry, that also doesn't parse into a comprehensible argument shrugs
      - xorcist 3y ago
soco 3y ago
As difficult as it might be to wrap our heads around it, no, there's no forcing, but it's the workers' collective decision as a union to not deliver to Tesla. A union is not some god-given abstract concept, it's a assembly of elected members of the workers which collectively voted to proceed this way. So the only "forcing" you could talk about is Tesla forcing them to accept unacceptable conditions, and even this wouldn't be really "forcing" - as we can see there are two parties negotiating their rights, all within their powers.
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  As difficult as it is to wrap our heads around. If no one is forcing them not to do it, it is their decision not to. So when they say employees decision it's true.
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    Collectively, not individually.
SwedishExpat 3y ago
Forcing is a strong word here. If you're a member of a union and the union says please don't do X, and you're aligned with the union, then you will be happy to not do X. This isn't a forceful action nor is it the workers decision, it's this greyish thing between the black and white. The members of the union could have a vote and change direction to do X if they wanted, but why would workers defend a company trying to get around a model that's resulted in one of the best working environments in the world?
geon 3y ago
The whole point as that no one is forced. Just like strike breakers worked for tesla, they could work for postnord. Of course, postnord is free to not accept strike breakers.