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This article uses the words "workers' decision" several times which sounds like individual workers are deciding to not deliver to Tesla. The truth is that a sym

This article uses the words "workers' decision" several times which sounds like individual workers are deciding to not deliver to Tesla. The truth is that a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action. So these workers are legally striking against Tesla too, it's not just an ad hoc decision made by individuals. PostNord employees could not just decide to stop sending parcels to a company without it being part of a directed strike.

hnbad 3y ago
We say "voters" when we mean their representatives too so this doesn't strike me as surprising even if you could argue that it's not really their decision if it's a representative system rather than one of delegation (where each delegate represents one or more people directly who can at any time withdraw their vote from them and vote directly or choose a different delegate). I don't know how Swedish unions are structured though. But yes, this is a solidarity strike and should be described as such to avoid confusion or ambiguity. It's interesting to see this play out as solidarity strikes are explicitly forbidden by law in my country (Germany) and while strikes and unions are granted many legal protections (e.g. a company under strike is not allowed to hire temporary strike breakers to substitute the striking workers, though they can use their existing non-striking workers), the law also explicitly restricts strikes to the company the workers are employed by. This is presumably meant to "tame" unions and prevent larger organized action, solidarity strikes or even a general strike (which would not be placing demands on the employer but e.g. the government).
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  The point I wanted to clarify is that if I worked at PostNord I couldn't decide to stop sending post to a company I disagree with, or a political party I dislike, etc. This is union-led industrial action. I saw some confusion in other posts on the topic where people thought this was individual action.
- sakjur 3y ago
  In Sweden it’d be illegal if there was a collective bargaining agreement in place and the strike wasn’t aligned with the terms set out therein. The law explicitly doesn’t extend the same protections for companies that don’t sign a CBA.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > We say "voters" when we mean their representatives too Not to say that this kind of decision tends to be non-biding and decided by vote. So all the influences the representatives have is deciding what vote to call; it's the workers casting the votes and deciding to follow them. Saying the workers are doing it is more than fair.
that_guy_iain 3y ago
Doesn't the union have a vote to decide these things. So it is "workers decision" and that's actually very important as far as I can tell for the legal dispute. PostNord says it can't force it's workers to do something. So if it's not the workers decision it's PostNord's decision and that is very different.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  > Doesn't the union have a vote to decide these things This was decided by Seko's union board, the union that covers most PostNord and other delivery companies employees > PostNord says it can't force it's workers to do something It is illegal to prevent a strike, yes > So if it's not the workers decision it's PostNord's decision and that is very different It's the unions decision https://www-seko-se.translate.goog/press-och-aktuellt/nyheter/2023/seko-stoppar-brev-och-paket-till-tesla/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-seko-se.translate.goog/press-och-aktuellt/nyhete... https://www.seko.se/siteassets/pdf-seko.se/avtal/konflikt/faq_sympatiatgarder_postnord_citymail_2023.pdf?ts=8dbe5f0fb0e7e80 https://www.seko.se/siteassets/pdf-seko.se/avtal/konflikt/fa...
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    So what you're saying is the union is forcing them to not deliver to Tesla?
    - piva00 3y ago
      The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. Stop thinking about Nordic unions as a boogeyman, a mafia, or whatever other "oppressive" figure you want to make them out to be, the way unions work here is different than what you are probably used to. It's a cornerstone on how the labour market functions in the Nordics...
      - gruez 3y ago
ajross 3y ago
> a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action Interestingly that's not quite what's happening either. The workers in question are not in a union. IF Metall is the union being supported, and merely wants to represent them (more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market). Everyone is just nuts here. Tesla needs to just cut a deal here, but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption, all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything is just batshit.
- pydry 3y ago
  Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. This isn't the first time this type of thing has happened. Walmart famously crashed and burned in Germany, for example, because they treated the German unions like uppity communists.
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. People want to be in unions. I want to be in my union. We feel good about them and employers (who respect our model) feel good about it too because it is cooperative. For many reasons, the US has a model which is not cooperative but built on bitter enmity. This is repeated throughout the nation with e.g. cars vs bikes. We do not have that here. This is Musk bringing all his prejudice to a bunch of countries he doesn't understand the norms and culture of.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      >> don't go down well in Europe. > Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. Unionization rates differ significantly across European countries. While the unionization rate in the Sweden is quite high at 65.2% (as of 2019), it is much lower in Germany at 16.3% and even lower in France at 8.9%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-most-unionized-countries-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-mos...

hnbad 3y ago

We say "voters" when we mean their representatives too so this doesn't strike me as surprising even if you could argue that it's not really their decision if it's a representative system rather than one of delegation (where each delegate represents one or more people directly who can at any time withdraw their vote from them and vote directly or choose a different delegate). I don't know how Swedish unions are structured though. But yes, this is a solidarity strike and should be described as such to avoid confusion or ambiguity. It's interesting to see this play out as solidarity strikes are explicitly forbidden by law in my country (Germany) and while strikes and unions are granted many legal protections (e.g. a company under strike is not allowed to hire temporary strike breakers to substitute the striking workers, though they can use their existing non-striking workers), the law also explicitly restricts strikes to the company the workers are employed by. This is presumably meant to "tame" unions and prevent larger organized action, solidarity strikes or even a general strike (which would not be placing demands on the employer but e.g. the government).

SwedishExpat 3y ago
The point I wanted to clarify is that if I worked at PostNord I couldn't decide to stop sending post to a company I disagree with, or a political party I dislike, etc. This is union-led industrial action. I saw some confusion in other posts on the topic where people thought this was individual action.
sakjur 3y ago
In Sweden it’d be illegal if there was a collective bargaining agreement in place and the strike wasn’t aligned with the terms set out therein. The law explicitly doesn’t extend the same protections for companies that don’t sign a CBA.
marcosdumay 3y ago
> We say "voters" when we mean their representatives too Not to say that this kind of decision tends to be non-biding and decided by vote. So all the influences the representatives have is deciding what vote to call; it's the workers casting the votes and deciding to follow them. Saying the workers are doing it is more than fair.

that_guy_iain 3y ago

Doesn't the union have a vote to decide these things. So it is "workers decision" and that's actually very important as far as I can tell for the legal dispute. PostNord says it can't force it's workers to do something. So if it's not the workers decision it's PostNord's decision and that is very different.

SwedishExpat 3y ago
> Doesn't the union have a vote to decide these things This was decided by Seko's union board, the union that covers most PostNord and other delivery companies employees > PostNord says it can't force it's workers to do something It is illegal to prevent a strike, yes > So if it's not the workers decision it's PostNord's decision and that is very different It's the unions decision https://www-seko-se.translate.goog/press-och-aktuellt/nyheter/2023/seko-stoppar-brev-och-paket-till-tesla/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-seko-se.translate.goog/press-och-aktuellt/nyhete... https://www.seko.se/siteassets/pdf-seko.se/avtal/konflikt/faq_sympatiatgarder_postnord_citymail_2023.pdf?ts=8dbe5f0fb0e7e80 https://www.seko.se/siteassets/pdf-seko.se/avtal/konflikt/fa...
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  So what you're saying is the union is forcing them to not deliver to Tesla?
  - piva00 3y ago
    The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. Stop thinking about Nordic unions as a boogeyman, a mafia, or whatever other "oppressive" figure you want to make them out to be, the way unions work here is different than what you are probably used to. It's a cornerstone on how the labour market functions in the Nordics...
    - gruez 3y ago

ajross 3y ago

> a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action Interestingly that's not quite what's happening either. The workers in question are not in a union. IF Metall is the union being supported, and merely wants to represent them (more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market). Everyone is just nuts here. Tesla needs to just cut a deal here, but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption, all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything is just batshit.

pydry 3y ago
Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. This isn't the first time this type of thing has happened. Walmart famously crashed and burned in Germany, for example, because they treated the German unions like uppity communists.
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. People want to be in unions. I want to be in my union. We feel good about them and employers (who respect our model) feel good about it too because it is cooperative. For many reasons, the US has a model which is not cooperative but built on bitter enmity. This is repeated throughout the nation with e.g. cars vs bikes. We do not have that here. This is Musk bringing all his prejudice to a bunch of countries he doesn't understand the norms and culture of.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    >> don't go down well in Europe. > Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. Unionization rates differ significantly across European countries. While the unionization rate in the Sweden is quite high at 65.2% (as of 2019), it is much lower in Germany at 16.3% and even lower in France at 8.9%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-most-unionized-countries-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-mos...