6 ms·

Hardly empirical. The data shows the opposite. ~80% of current billionaires in the U.S. are self-made first generation.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
And another large chunk are first generation inherited. Like self made mom or dad just kicked the bucket. This myth of multi-generational, dynastic absurd wealth is.... nonsense with few exceptions.
tmalsburg2 3y ago
Source?
futureamish 3y ago
Are we calling them "self-made" now for strapping some http requests to old, purposefully gate-kept banking systems? Or is it the ones that we allowed to horizontally expand with zero regulatory system to stop them? Or is it the ones who ruined housing the world over? So many useful people.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
You don't have to inherit billions from your parents to have a huge leg up on everyone else. There are examples all over the place from something as extravagant 'a small loan of a million dollars' to 'an introduction to a vp at ibm', to paying their kids tuition to the best private schools. I am extremely suspicious of any wealthy person who claims to be 'self made' when in reality they had a paved path to success.
spiralx 3y ago
The article is saying that the inherited wealth of the remaining 20% of today's billionaires is greater than the wealth of those new-made billionaires, there's no contradiction there at all. And obviously you'd expect most new billionaires to have a net wealth close to the $1bn mark, so all it would take is each of the 20% to inherit four times as much on average. This page lists nine people who inherited over $50bn each, and another 23 who inherited between $4bn and $50bn, totalling just over $1.1tn of inherited wealth. Easy to see how that would outweigh the wealth of a larger number of new billionaires. https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizations/which-of-the-worlds-richest-people-inherited-their-wealth/ https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizatio... And that list doesn't include any of the inherited wealth of the various royal, noble and other old money families around the world...
godelski 3y ago
> ~80% of current billionaires in the U.S. are self-made first generation. I see conflicting evidence to the claim[0,1,2] I'd argue that you also got to be really careful with these studies. Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue. In some sense, no person is self made as we're all products of our environments and the opportunities presented to us. If it were consistent you wouldn't see these numbers swing between studies, so don't just pick the highest one. Metrics are deceptive because their subtleties and you need to carefully consider their alignment. [0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/79-millionaires-self-made-lessons-160025947.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/79-millionaires-self-made-les... [1] https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires... [2] https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/study-shows-only-27-of-wealthy-americans-are-self-made/ https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/st...
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  >> Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue Forbes has an interesting (to me at least) self-made score that assigns ten categories from "Inherited fortune but not working to increase it" to "Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles", https://www.forbes.com/sites/gigizamora/2023/10/03/the-2023-forbes-400-self-made-score-from-silver-spooners-to-bootstrappers/?sh=ee7acba32c53 https://www.forbes.com/sites/gigizamora/2023/10/03/the-2023-....
  - godelski 3y ago
    Yeah this is the major issue and I think there's a big difference in how people internalize the notion of "self-made" vs how others actually utilize the terminology. Definitely part of this is due to human psyche where we (generally) place importance on our actions rather than our environment (which makes sense due to this is what we have (more) direct control over). There is also a significant number of people who have high incentives to weaken the definition and many do become true believers. 1/10 = Inherited fortune but not working to increase it 10/10 = Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles Here's some clearer example of what may lead to confusion. - Forbes gives Elon a self made score of 8/10. That's high, for this list considering what 10 means but 8 also is large with "middle-class or upper-middle-class background" (including Zuck and Bezos). Certainly Elon is significantly self-made (his family certainly weren't billionaires) but there is ambiguity about what class he grew up in. According to his dad[0], he paid for Elon's trip to Canada and his education (also discussing the sale of a private aircraft) while Elon claims he grew up poor and came to the Americas with only with $2.5k to his name and ended with $100k in student debt ($100k 1987 = $187k 2023). Certainly there is animosity between father and son and I'm willing to believe Elon believes he's telling the truth (not synonymous with being the truth). But Elon claims a 10/10 self-made score while the dad is saying something closer to a 7 (which is still quite privileged by the average person's standards: "got head start from wealthy family"). Elon's net worth is (Forbes) estimated $245bn and rank #1. - Forbes equally ranks Bezos and the wiki page is kinda wild[1]. At birth his mom was a high school senior and father was a uni-cyclist but he also attended a Montessori school at age 2. At 4 his mom remarried and his step dad (Mark Bezos) worked for Exxon as an engineer. But Jeff also says Amazon was a family effort and it looks like his parents loaned him $245k ($480k 2023) and they're also billionaires now due to "early investment." I think it is safe to say most will consider Bezos much more self-made than Musk especially considering his dad (Mike) was a Cuban refuge refuge and still a student when his parents married. Without a doubt the average person would call Bezos self made and even believe he struggled and his success is highly conditioned on his work and ability to take advantage of ample opportunities at the time. Bezos's net worth is estimated $170bn and rank 3. - Now one spot up (9/10) we have Sergei Brin[2] (link for history, you're on HN, you know who Sergei is...). Born in Soviet Russia to a math professor father and engineer mother. The wiki article discusses job loss, troubles getting out of Poland, and let's be honest, professors and NASA engineers are not the wealthiest of people, but neither are they poor (he also attended a Montessori School. I'm not shilling, I'm mentioning because private schools are expensive so puts some objective signal on family wealth). I think the average person would without a doubt not just think Sergei is self made but went through significant struggle, no matter where on the spectrum of "middle class" he grew up on (prof + engineer is reasonably upper middle). Sergei's estimated net worth is $110bn and rank 10. - At 10/10 is George Soros[3], born in 1930 Budapest to (non-observing) Jewish parents I think we all know what happened. They didn't leave Hungry till post war (1947). There is mention that his family was themselves a bit antisemitic at the time and in 1944 were able to pose as Christians. No matter the personal beliefs I think it would be __difficult__ to claim that Soros is highly self-made and __without a doubt__ had struggles that few others can relate to in terms of severity (this history likely explains his passion for politics). Soros's net worth is estimated $6.7bn and ranked 396 Assuming all this is reasonably true, there's a crazy amount of difference between ranks 7 and 10. I honestly think most people would think a Forbes 7 is a 2 or 3 out of 10 and would interpret a 7 as vastly self made. Edit: also kind crazy we live in a time where this can all be found and compiled in ~30 minutes. That's definitely a privileged environment, at least to my personal belief. [0] https://www.the-sun.com/news/8014711/elon-musk-dad-errol-chance-meeting-disputed-emerald-mine/ https://www.the-sun.com/news/8014711/elon-musk-dad-errol-cha... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros

And another large chunk are first generation inherited. Like self made mom or dad just kicked the bucket. This myth of multi-generational, dynastic absurd wealth is.... nonsense with few exceptions.

tmalsburg2 3y ago

Source?

futureamish 3y ago

Are we calling them "self-made" now for strapping some http requests to old, purposefully gate-kept banking systems? Or is it the ones that we allowed to horizontally expand with zero regulatory system to stop them? Or is it the ones who ruined housing the world over? So many useful people.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

You don't have to inherit billions from your parents to have a huge leg up on everyone else. There are examples all over the place from something as extravagant 'a small loan of a million dollars' to 'an introduction to a vp at ibm', to paying their kids tuition to the best private schools. I am extremely suspicious of any wealthy person who claims to be 'self made' when in reality they had a paved path to success.

spiralx 3y ago

The article is saying that the inherited wealth of the remaining 20% of today's billionaires is greater than the wealth of those new-made billionaires, there's no contradiction there at all. And obviously you'd expect most new billionaires to have a net wealth close to the $1bn mark, so all it would take is each of the 20% to inherit four times as much on average. This page lists nine people who inherited over $50bn each, and another 23 who inherited between $4bn and $50bn, totalling just over $1.1tn of inherited wealth. Easy to see how that would outweigh the wealth of a larger number of new billionaires. https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizations/which-of-the-worlds-richest-people-inherited-their-wealth/ https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/visualizatio... And that list doesn't include any of the inherited wealth of the various royal, noble and other old money families around the world...

godelski 3y ago

> ~80% of current billionaires in the U.S. are self-made first generation. I see conflicting evidence to the claim[0,1,2] I'd argue that you also got to be really careful with these studies. Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue. In some sense, no person is self made as we're all products of our environments and the opportunities presented to us. If it were consistent you wouldn't see these numbers swing between studies, so don't just pick the highest one. Metrics are deceptive because their subtleties and you need to carefully consider their alignment. [0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/79-millionaires-self-made-lessons-160025947.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/79-millionaires-self-made-les... [1] https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires... [2] https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/study-shows-only-27-of-wealthy-americans-are-self-made/ https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/st...

rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> Defining "self-made" is not a straight forward issue Forbes has an interesting (to me at least) self-made score that assigns ten categories from "Inherited fortune but not working to increase it" to "Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles", https://www.forbes.com/sites/gigizamora/2023/10/03/the-2023-forbes-400-self-made-score-from-silver-spooners-to-bootstrappers/?sh=ee7acba32c53 https://www.forbes.com/sites/gigizamora/2023/10/03/the-2023-....
- godelski 3y ago
  Yeah this is the major issue and I think there's a big difference in how people internalize the notion of "self-made" vs how others actually utilize the terminology. Definitely part of this is due to human psyche where we (generally) place importance on our actions rather than our environment (which makes sense due to this is what we have (more) direct control over). There is also a significant number of people who have high incentives to weaken the definition and many do become true believers. 1/10 = Inherited fortune but not working to increase it 10/10 = Self-made who not only grew up poor but also overcame significant obstacles Here's some clearer example of what may lead to confusion. - Forbes gives Elon a self made score of 8/10. That's high, for this list considering what 10 means but 8 also is large with "middle-class or upper-middle-class background" (including Zuck and Bezos). Certainly Elon is significantly self-made (his family certainly weren't billionaires) but there is ambiguity about what class he grew up in. According to his dad[0], he paid for Elon's trip to Canada and his education (also discussing the sale of a private aircraft) while Elon claims he grew up poor and came to the Americas with only with $2.5k to his name and ended with $100k in student debt ($100k 1987 = $187k 2023). Certainly there is animosity between father and son and I'm willing to believe Elon believes he's telling the truth (not synonymous with being the truth). But Elon claims a 10/10 self-made score while the dad is saying something closer to a 7 (which is still quite privileged by the average person's standards: "got head start from wealthy family"). Elon's net worth is (Forbes) estimated $245bn and rank #1. - Forbes equally ranks Bezos and the wiki page is kinda wild[1]. At birth his mom was a high school senior and father was a uni-cyclist but he also attended a Montessori school at age 2. At 4 his mom remarried and his step dad (Mark Bezos) worked for Exxon as an engineer. But Jeff also says Amazon was a family effort and it looks like his parents loaned him $245k ($480k 2023) and they're also billionaires now due to "early investment." I think it is safe to say most will consider Bezos much more self-made than Musk especially considering his dad (Mike) was a Cuban refuge refuge and still a student when his parents married. Without a doubt the average person would call Bezos self made and even believe he struggled and his success is highly conditioned on his work and ability to take advantage of ample opportunities at the time. Bezos's net worth is estimated $170bn and rank 3. - Now one spot up (9/10) we have Sergei Brin[2] (link for history, you're on HN, you know who Sergei is...). Born in Soviet Russia to a math professor father and engineer mother. The wiki article discusses job loss, troubles getting out of Poland, and let's be honest, professors and NASA engineers are not the wealthiest of people, but neither are they poor (he also attended a Montessori School. I'm not shilling, I'm mentioning because private schools are expensive so puts some objective signal on family wealth). I think the average person would without a doubt not just think Sergei is self made but went through significant struggle, no matter where on the spectrum of "middle class" he grew up on (prof + engineer is reasonably upper middle). Sergei's estimated net worth is $110bn and rank 10. - At 10/10 is George Soros[3], born in 1930 Budapest to (non-observing) Jewish parents I think we all know what happened. They didn't leave Hungry till post war (1947). There is mention that his family was themselves a bit antisemitic at the time and in 1944 were able to pose as Christians. No matter the personal beliefs I think it would be __difficult__ to claim that Soros is highly self-made and __without a doubt__ had struggles that few others can relate to in terms of severity (this history likely explains his passion for politics). Soros's net worth is estimated $6.7bn and ranked 396 Assuming all this is reasonably true, there's a crazy amount of difference between ranks 7 and 10. I honestly think most people would think a Forbes 7 is a 2 or 3 out of 10 and would interpret a 7 as vastly self made. Edit: also kind crazy we live in a time where this can all be found and compiled in ~30 minutes. That's definitely a privileged environment, at least to my personal belief. [0] https://www.the-sun.com/news/8014711/elon-musk-dad-errol-chance-meeting-disputed-emerald-mine/ https://www.the-sun.com/news/8014711/elon-musk-dad-errol-cha... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros