5 ms·

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34685573/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34685573/ https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Derrick-Lonsdale https://www.researchg

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34685573/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34685573/ https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Derrick-Lonsdale https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Derrick-Lonsdale Some links to get you started. B1 deficiency can be caused by things like alcoholism. He also thinks we don’t get enough of b1 in our diet and the current scale is not sufficient. Symptoms can vary and can involve different nervous systems. Things like tingling, insomnia, fatigue. A lot of people talk about getting paradoxical reaction or refeeeding syndrome, meaning once they start taking b1 they get massive flare up of symptoms.

polishdude20 3y ago
Can we get enough B1 by just diet alone? It seems a lot of foods either have in naturally or are fortified with it. Why the need for extra supplements?
- tuatoru 3y ago
  There is an "undernutrition" hypothesis. Back in the day when we were all doing enough work (men, women, children) to need over twice our base-metabolic-rate number of calories per day, and eating whole foods, particularly red and white offal and leafy greens like collard and beet greens, steamed and roasted, we got enough of these mesonutrients and micronutrients. Twice your BMR is about 5000 Cal/day for an adult male. You need to do eight hours' physical work (shoveling, threshing, chopping, sawing, lifting, doing the laundry by hand, etc.) to burn off the extra. Now, the hypothesis says, we are deficient in many of these nutrients because we simply do not eat enough food, only 2500 Cal/day and a lot of that is from vegetable oils and low-nutrient animal fats. I have no investment in the hypothesis. Just reporting it. Edit: Vegemite and Marmite are high in vitamin B1. Possibly Bovril also. Spread it thinly on your toast and grill it.
  - andai 3y ago
    That is an interesting point. What we also know is that soils are being depleted of minerals, and farmers are selecting for crops with higher shelf life over higher nutrition. e.g. tomatoes have lost most flavor and nutrition over past few decades, some efforts are underway to hybridize them with older variants to get the best of both worlds.
    - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
      > e.g. tomatoes have lost most flavor and nutrition over past few decades can't speak for nutrition (nor do you provide support for that claim) but as to flavour, you clearly haven't been round long! Old fashioned tomatoes were shite I can testify (at least those available in the UK).
      - galangalalgol 3y ago
        My grandmother said the ones from the 20s in the us tasted way better, but they didn't keep any time at all, which was fine because they grew or raised all their own food.
        serf 3y ago
        same story here. she also said that it was commonplace for people to have plants that originated from seeds from 'the old world' and brought over; maybe they were at that point closer to some genetic cousin.
      - wise0wl 3y ago
        I grow heirloom tomatoes in the United States, and they are spectacular. The tomatoes available in the grocery store pale in comparison to anything grown in your own garden.
        briHass 3y ago
        This probably has more to do with the fact that supermarket tomatoes are picked before they fully ripen on the vine (often green). I also enjoy growing my own (Brandywine is a favorite), and letting it ripen on-vine to the point where it's probably hours away from falling off or starting to rot results in a much better tasting tomato than jumping the gun.
  - galangalalgol 3y ago
    Thanks for that, very interesting. There used to be some fruitarian who said his bloodwork was all perfect eating primarily some ridiculous number of bananas each day. And his conclusion everyone should just eat fruit. Well he was burning over 10000 calories a day bicycling, I think he was a delivery rider and it was his hobby. That diet doesn't scale down to 2000 calories for the reasons you mention. I also wonder about all that potassium...
  - polishdude20 3y ago
    Do you have a source for the amount of calories we used to consume historically? Twice the calories means twice the food which means twice the bulk, twice the time to eat etc. My perception is that we were actually quite underfed historically.
- andai 3y ago
  What I heard was that some people have mutations that impair digestion (absorption requires some cellular machinery) or in other cases the utilization of B1. Apparently the mechanisms for absorbing it depend on having sufficient B1, and can get "stuck" in a deficient mode if you went through a period of deficiency, which can then be "unblocked" (kickstarted) with a megadose. Take this with a grain of salt, it's supposedly based in research, but I didn't check any papers about it yet.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  Usually they're fortified with a low enough amount of vitamins that it prevents pellagra, beriberi, etc. Not necessarily enough to address other problems. And if you aren't eating a lot of enriched flour you might not be consuming it in fortified foods at all.

polishdude20 3y ago

Can we get enough B1 by just diet alone? It seems a lot of foods either have in naturally or are fortified with it. Why the need for extra supplements?

tuatoru 3y ago
There is an "undernutrition" hypothesis. Back in the day when we were all doing enough work (men, women, children) to need over twice our base-metabolic-rate number of calories per day, and eating whole foods, particularly red and white offal and leafy greens like collard and beet greens, steamed and roasted, we got enough of these mesonutrients and micronutrients. Twice your BMR is about 5000 Cal/day for an adult male. You need to do eight hours' physical work (shoveling, threshing, chopping, sawing, lifting, doing the laundry by hand, etc.) to burn off the extra. Now, the hypothesis says, we are deficient in many of these nutrients because we simply do not eat enough food, only 2500 Cal/day and a lot of that is from vegetable oils and low-nutrient animal fats. I have no investment in the hypothesis. Just reporting it. Edit: Vegemite and Marmite are high in vitamin B1. Possibly Bovril also. Spread it thinly on your toast and grill it.
- andai 3y ago
  That is an interesting point. What we also know is that soils are being depleted of minerals, and farmers are selecting for crops with higher shelf life over higher nutrition. e.g. tomatoes have lost most flavor and nutrition over past few decades, some efforts are underway to hybridize them with older variants to get the best of both worlds.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    > e.g. tomatoes have lost most flavor and nutrition over past few decades can't speak for nutrition (nor do you provide support for that claim) but as to flavour, you clearly haven't been round long! Old fashioned tomatoes were shite I can testify (at least those available in the UK).
    - galangalalgol 3y ago
      My grandmother said the ones from the 20s in the us tasted way better, but they didn't keep any time at all, which was fine because they grew or raised all their own food.
      - serf 3y ago
        same story here. she also said that it was commonplace for people to have plants that originated from seeds from 'the old world' and brought over; maybe they were at that point closer to some genetic cousin.
    - wise0wl 3y ago
      I grow heirloom tomatoes in the United States, and they are spectacular. The tomatoes available in the grocery store pale in comparison to anything grown in your own garden.
      - briHass 3y ago
        This probably has more to do with the fact that supermarket tomatoes are picked before they fully ripen on the vine (often green). I also enjoy growing my own (Brandywine is a favorite), and letting it ripen on-vine to the point where it's probably hours away from falling off or starting to rot results in a much better tasting tomato than jumping the gun.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  Thanks for that, very interesting. There used to be some fruitarian who said his bloodwork was all perfect eating primarily some ridiculous number of bananas each day. And his conclusion everyone should just eat fruit. Well he was burning over 10000 calories a day bicycling, I think he was a delivery rider and it was his hobby. That diet doesn't scale down to 2000 calories for the reasons you mention. I also wonder about all that potassium...
- polishdude20 3y ago
  Do you have a source for the amount of calories we used to consume historically? Twice the calories means twice the food which means twice the bulk, twice the time to eat etc. My perception is that we were actually quite underfed historically.
andai 3y ago
What I heard was that some people have mutations that impair digestion (absorption requires some cellular machinery) or in other cases the utilization of B1. Apparently the mechanisms for absorbing it depend on having sufficient B1, and can get "stuck" in a deficient mode if you went through a period of deficiency, which can then be "unblocked" (kickstarted) with a megadose. Take this with a grain of salt, it's supposedly based in research, but I didn't check any papers about it yet.
heavyset_go 3y ago
Usually they're fortified with a low enough amount of vitamins that it prevents pellagra, beriberi, etc. Not necessarily enough to address other problems. And if you aren't eating a lot of enriched flour you might not be consuming it in fortified foods at all.