5 ms·

FaceID data is stored in the front module. Can’t swap it else anyone can unlock your phone with a swapped FaceID module. LiDAR not sure what’s happening.

clort 3y ago
Surely if the FaceID module provides a key to decrypt the encrypted contents of the phone, if you swap a module then another module might be able to verify a face but not provide the correct key, and the phone remains locked? If, before you remove the module, you wiped the phone then of course no key is required.. Having a module which could be removed and replaced just say Yes or No would seem to be a very poor design. Also in that case, Apple could presumably authorise a new module, meaning they would retain the capability to break into any phone (which I understood they did not want)
- zlsa 3y ago
  That wouldn’t prevent the case of “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the owner resets and sets up Face ID again” right?
  - purkka 3y ago
    Apple could still use keys to validate the module is genuine. Then you just need to trust Apple to not release compromised modules. They need to just stop pairing the individual modules to the phone.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    Upon noticing the phone isn't unlocking and reading the big warning message that the Face ID module was replaced, which doesn't seem like a big threat vector to me.
    - Someone 3y ago
      I think it is because it’s not “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the OWNER resets and sets up Face ID again”, but “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the THIEF resets and lets the owner set up Face ID again”. They’re also is the case of “Steal two phones, swap a few parts, reset the phones, and sell them second-hand”. Both phones will have 100% genuine parts.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        > “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the THIEF resets and lets the owner set up Face ID again” The thief wouldn't have been able to reset Face ID, would they? Also it would make sense to warn a second time when you go to set up Face ID again. If they reset the entire phone, uh, they could have handed you a different phone entirely. I don't see how part swapping is the problem here. > They’re also is the case of “Steal two phones, swap a few parts, reset the phones, and sell them second-hand”. Both phones will have 100% genuine parts. What role does the part swap have in this scenario? What stops me from simplifying it to "Steal two phones, reset the phones, and sell them second-hand."? Because if that simplification is valid, then this scenario has nothing to do with repairability.
- wilg 3y ago
  Here is an overview of how that system works: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/secure-enclave-sec59b0b31ff/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/secure-enclave-sec5... https://support.apple.com/guide/security/face-id-and-touch-id-security-sec067eb0c9e/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/face-id-and-touch-i... https://support.apple.com/en-us/102381 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102381
simion314 3y ago
>Can’t swap it else anyone can unlock your phone with a swapped FaceID module. I think some very highly paid engineer at Apple could figure out this simple solution. "If the FaceId, Fingerprint Reader is compromised you fallback to the password, there should always be a password/PIN for special cases". Just in case those engineers could not coem up with such ideas , Apple(and others) you can use my idea for free, I will donate it to you for the environment sake.
- hahamaster 3y ago
  Give this man a Nobel prize, we have a proper genius here.
  - simion314 3y ago
    I was sarcastic dude, it is clear that Apple is anti independent repair, I should be able to sell my old broken phone for parts, those highly paid engineers should be able to figure it out if management gives them the task to do it.
- NavinF 3y ago
  Isn't that how it works today? Same way swapping touchid modules will disable fingerprint unlock
- circuit10 3y ago
  I think that’s already how it works, ideally there would be a way to re-pair the new sensor if you’re the original owner though
  - porbelm 3y ago
    There is: Take it to Apple and pay to have it fixed by them ;) I dunno if Touch ID is on the list of things they let you do yourself these days, but if so you "only" have to use their kit, which also lets you verify the parts IIUC
    - 3y ago
BillinghamJ 3y ago
I was under the impression that it was all stored in the iPhone's secure element, which is part of the main processor? But they're paired cryptographically - to ensure the data isn't faked. And I would think there is some calibration data. Maybe that's wrong though - are there any docs you can link?

clort 3y ago

Surely if the FaceID module provides a key to decrypt the encrypted contents of the phone, if you swap a module then another module might be able to verify a face but not provide the correct key, and the phone remains locked? If, before you remove the module, you wiped the phone then of course no key is required.. Having a module which could be removed and replaced just say Yes or No would seem to be a very poor design. Also in that case, Apple could presumably authorise a new module, meaning they would retain the capability to break into any phone (which I understood they did not want)

zlsa 3y ago
That wouldn’t prevent the case of “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the owner resets and sets up Face ID again” right?
- purkka 3y ago
  Apple could still use keys to validate the module is genuine. Then you just need to trust Apple to not release compromised modules. They need to just stop pairing the individual modules to the phone.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  Upon noticing the phone isn't unlocking and reading the big warning message that the Face ID module was replaced, which doesn't seem like a big threat vector to me.
  - Someone 3y ago
    I think it is because it’s not “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the OWNER resets and sets up Face ID again”, but “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the THIEF resets and lets the owner set up Face ID again”. They’re also is the case of “Steal two phones, swap a few parts, reset the phones, and sell them second-hand”. Both phones will have 100% genuine parts.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      > “the module is swapped for one that unlocks no matter what, and upon noticing the phone isn’t unlocking, the THIEF resets and lets the owner set up Face ID again” The thief wouldn't have been able to reset Face ID, would they? Also it would make sense to warn a second time when you go to set up Face ID again. If they reset the entire phone, uh, they could have handed you a different phone entirely. I don't see how part swapping is the problem here. > They’re also is the case of “Steal two phones, swap a few parts, reset the phones, and sell them second-hand”. Both phones will have 100% genuine parts. What role does the part swap have in this scenario? What stops me from simplifying it to "Steal two phones, reset the phones, and sell them second-hand."? Because if that simplification is valid, then this scenario has nothing to do with repairability.
wilg 3y ago
Here is an overview of how that system works: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/secure-enclave-sec59b0b31ff/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/secure-enclave-sec5... https://support.apple.com/guide/security/face-id-and-touch-id-security-sec067eb0c9e/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/face-id-and-touch-i... https://support.apple.com/en-us/102381 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102381

simion314 3y ago

>Can’t swap it else anyone can unlock your phone with a swapped FaceID module. I think some very highly paid engineer at Apple could figure out this simple solution. "If the FaceId, Fingerprint Reader is compromised you fallback to the password, there should always be a password/PIN for special cases". Just in case those engineers could not coem up with such ideas , Apple(and others) you can use my idea for free, I will donate it to you for the environment sake.

hahamaster 3y ago
Give this man a Nobel prize, we have a proper genius here.
- simion314 3y ago
  I was sarcastic dude, it is clear that Apple is anti independent repair, I should be able to sell my old broken phone for parts, those highly paid engineers should be able to figure it out if management gives them the task to do it.
NavinF 3y ago
Isn't that how it works today? Same way swapping touchid modules will disable fingerprint unlock
circuit10 3y ago
I think that’s already how it works, ideally there would be a way to re-pair the new sensor if you’re the original owner though
- porbelm 3y ago
  There is: Take it to Apple and pay to have it fixed by them ;) I dunno if Touch ID is on the list of things they let you do yourself these days, but if so you "only" have to use their kit, which also lets you verify the parts IIUC
  - 3y ago

BillinghamJ 3y ago

I was under the impression that it was all stored in the iPhone's secure element, which is part of the main processor? But they're paired cryptographically - to ensure the data isn't faked. And I would think there is some calibration data. Maybe that's wrong though - are there any docs you can link?