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Yes. Like the Amtrak in the North East Corridor. Where Amtrak actually has none of the limitations imposed by the freight carriers, and actually runs in the int

Yes. Like the Amtrak in the North East Corridor. Where Amtrak actually has none of the limitations imposed by the freight carriers, and actually runs in the interest of the public good. Guess what? It's also the only part of Amtrak that's ever made a profit.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> Guess what? It's also the only part of Amtrak that's ever made a profit. It's also the only part of the US with that amount of population density. Nobody is going to ride passenger rail through an empty desert in northern Nevada regardless of who owns the tracks. But then because Amtrak nevertheless operates a line there and subsidizes it with fares from places they actually should be operating, they can't even compete in the North East Corridor where they own the tracks. Metro North has more ridership in a subset of the northeast than Amtrak has nationwide, as well as lower prices and more frequent service.
- gascoigne 3y ago
  I realize I played this card first, but maybe, just maybe, railways should not be for-profit infrastructure to begin with. Japan, for example, has a similar problem with the bullet train. There are plenty of sleepy towns that would make little sense to stop at between Tokyo and Osaka. They still have about 15 stops on that line anyway, and you have to take the slowest bullet trains to get there. But the stops have totally changed life in these cities. Perhaps there's a similar case to be made for Northern Nevada?
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Northern Nevada isn't sleepy towns, it's nothing. It's the desert. But that's not even the problem if there was a metropolis on the other side of it. There isn't. Tokyo is ~300 miles from Osaka. If you go 300 miles from Sacramento, you're not in Osaka, population 2.7 million, you're in Winnemucca, population under 9000. The first meaningful destination on the far side of California is Salt Lake City, population ~200,000, 650 miles away in a different time zone. And that is not a big city, it's just the only thing anywhere near there. To get to a proper metropolitan area you're going to Denver, more than 1100 miles from where you started. It's too far away.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Guess what there is something in between the Nevada desert and the North East corridor. And also, the most popular railroads in Europe are connecting close city and villages, like S-Bahns. And Amtrak operates in several places where there is very little other options for people, so operating at a loss at time is perfectly reasonable for a public service. US rail is the least subsidized form of transit. And the point about Metro North, guess what if the freight railroad owned all those tracks then that would be possible either.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > Guess what there is something in between the Nevada desert and the North East corridor. Is there though? Here are the cities with at least 500,000 population on the line between Chicago and Sacramento: Denver. That's it. Omaha has just under 500,000 people. It's over 2000 miles of farmland and desert. > And Amtrak operates in several places where there is very little other options for people, so operating at a loss at time is perfectly reasonable for a public service. The people who live in western states have cars. Amtrak is useless because it goes to Chicago but not to the grocery store, which is why they have cars, but their cars can go to Chicago too. Or to the airport, because Chicago is a thousand miles from them. > And the point about Metro North, guess what if the freight railroad owned all those tracks then that would be possible either. Sure it would, because you could build entirely parallel tracks there exclusively for passenger rail and it would still be profitable because it's a high population density area where passenger rail actually makes sense.
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      > Is there though? I was speaking as 'in between in terms of population density' not literally in between geographically. > The people who live in western states have cars. They have cars because they have to have cars because there is no alternative. That's the whole point, you need public transit so people don't need to own cars. And guess what, the poor don't actually have to have cars. And guess what, cars still require lots of government infrastructure that's really costly. A city to city transit system needs to be integrated with a regional and a local transit system. I live in a city with 70k people and there is regular service to many villages and cities with 30k people or less. I recommend you read the blog pedestrianobservations.com, he has a lot of knowledge about transport systems and cost. You can read about his recommendations for US travel including high speed rail there: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021/03/22/high-speed-rail-followup/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021/03/22/high-speed-rai... > it would still be profitable because it's a high population density area where passenger rail actually makes sense. Passenger rail even in population dense regions is hard to make profitable, specially if you want to have high frequency and allow service from early morning to late night. If you had to build new infrastructure form the ground up its hard to justify. Thinking about profitability first is just a generally bad idea when talking about infrastructure.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> Guess what? It's also the only part of Amtrak that's ever made a profit. It's also the only part of the US with that amount of population density. Nobody is going to ride passenger rail through an empty desert in northern Nevada regardless of who owns the tracks. But then because Amtrak nevertheless operates a line there and subsidizes it with fares from places they actually should be operating, they can't even compete in the North East Corridor where they own the tracks. Metro North has more ridership in a subset of the northeast than Amtrak has nationwide, as well as lower prices and more frequent service.

gascoigne 3y ago
I realize I played this card first, but maybe, just maybe, railways should not be for-profit infrastructure to begin with. Japan, for example, has a similar problem with the bullet train. There are plenty of sleepy towns that would make little sense to stop at between Tokyo and Osaka. They still have about 15 stops on that line anyway, and you have to take the slowest bullet trains to get there. But the stops have totally changed life in these cities. Perhaps there's a similar case to be made for Northern Nevada?
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Northern Nevada isn't sleepy towns, it's nothing. It's the desert. But that's not even the problem if there was a metropolis on the other side of it. There isn't. Tokyo is ~300 miles from Osaka. If you go 300 miles from Sacramento, you're not in Osaka, population 2.7 million, you're in Winnemucca, population under 9000. The first meaningful destination on the far side of California is Salt Lake City, population ~200,000, 650 miles away in a different time zone. And that is not a big city, it's just the only thing anywhere near there. To get to a proper metropolitan area you're going to Denver, more than 1100 miles from where you started. It's too far away.
panick21_ 3y ago
Guess what there is something in between the Nevada desert and the North East corridor. And also, the most popular railroads in Europe are connecting close city and villages, like S-Bahns. And Amtrak operates in several places where there is very little other options for people, so operating at a loss at time is perfectly reasonable for a public service. US rail is the least subsidized form of transit. And the point about Metro North, guess what if the freight railroad owned all those tracks then that would be possible either.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > Guess what there is something in between the Nevada desert and the North East corridor. Is there though? Here are the cities with at least 500,000 population on the line between Chicago and Sacramento: Denver. That's it. Omaha has just under 500,000 people. It's over 2000 miles of farmland and desert. > And Amtrak operates in several places where there is very little other options for people, so operating at a loss at time is perfectly reasonable for a public service. The people who live in western states have cars. Amtrak is useless because it goes to Chicago but not to the grocery store, which is why they have cars, but their cars can go to Chicago too. Or to the airport, because Chicago is a thousand miles from them. > And the point about Metro North, guess what if the freight railroad owned all those tracks then that would be possible either. Sure it would, because you could build entirely parallel tracks there exclusively for passenger rail and it would still be profitable because it's a high population density area where passenger rail actually makes sense.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    > Is there though? I was speaking as 'in between in terms of population density' not literally in between geographically. > The people who live in western states have cars. They have cars because they have to have cars because there is no alternative. That's the whole point, you need public transit so people don't need to own cars. And guess what, the poor don't actually have to have cars. And guess what, cars still require lots of government infrastructure that's really costly. A city to city transit system needs to be integrated with a regional and a local transit system. I live in a city with 70k people and there is regular service to many villages and cities with 30k people or less. I recommend you read the blog pedestrianobservations.com, he has a lot of knowledge about transport systems and cost. You can read about his recommendations for US travel including high speed rail there: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021/03/22/high-speed-rail-followup/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2021/03/22/high-speed-rai... > it would still be profitable because it's a high population density area where passenger rail actually makes sense. Passenger rail even in population dense regions is hard to make profitable, specially if you want to have high frequency and allow service from early morning to late night. If you had to build new infrastructure form the ground up its hard to justify. Thinking about profitability first is just a generally bad idea when talking about infrastructure.