6 ms·

Ex Apple TV Engineer: New Apple TV UI is actually one Jobs threw away years ago

58 points by i_cannot_hack 14y ago

padobson 14y ago
I haven't used the latest iteration of the AppleTV UI, but I did use the last version, and I found it to be pretty terrible. Any time text input was needed, it was a nightmare. I don't know if the new UI took care of that problem, but coupled with the remote (clearly a case of aesthetics chosen of utility), I found the entire experience to be decidedly less enjoyable than any other living room interface - XBox360, PS3, or any cable set top box.
- spullara 14y ago
  You can use your iPad / iPhone for text input -- but that isn't what this article is addressing. They moved from a text menu type selection system to a grid of applications type system.
protomyth 14y ago
I get the feeling we are going to get these type of stories for the next several years. "Steve Jobs wouldn't have done that" or "Steve Jobs didn't like that" will be a pretty good link-baited headline. He assembled a good crew of people who are going to do some things different (e.g. charity contributions). Some of the things might have been left as "notes / advise" by Steve Jobs in his last days and some might be new thinking. We won't really know the whole story. Apple changes every day is the only constant.
ugh 14y ago
The Apple TV had numerous different UIs over the years, so it's safe to conclude that Steve Jobs also said yes to a UI in the past that he should have thrown out. Steve Jobs mad numerous false calls over the years. He can be wrong, you know.
adamjernst 14y ago
I found the new Apple TV UI to be a significant improvement, for what it's worth.
- garyrichardson 14y ago
  And yet, I find it annoying to look at compared to the old UI. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but for the size of the display and the amount of info that can be displayed on it I feel like text is better than huge icons.
- jws 14y ago
  I find it a mixed bag. I think I navigate it faster, but it is a grid of random technicolor barf. They should take the next step, let me exile the stuff I never use and bump up the size of the stuff I do use, or open an App ecosystem and let me add more stuff that I do want to use. Unrelated speculation: The Apple TV has been repeatedly characterized as a "hobby" by Apple. I'm sure they'd love to distribute all major TV and movie content, but they can't get the content owners in line. But what happens now if they do get the content owners to agree to the business model of being paid by happy consumers? The Apple brand is so aglow, and the cost of the AppleTV unit so low, that the demand could go from near zero to internet crushing levels in a matter of weeks. They may have lost the luxury of a controlled ramp up.
- andrewtbham 14y ago
  I agree... the old interface was a menu. i didn't like it very much.
davidcann 14y ago
The Apple TV seems to be moving toward an app based approach, so perhaps this UI simply makes more sense in the current ecosystem.
- thehodge 14y ago
  When the Apple TV gets apps I think we will start to see the beginning of the end for Nintendo... thats the iPod for on the move and the Apple TV for the home casual gaming.. You can buy a wii game for £40 or almost 80 59p silly games on the Apple tv... and using iphones / ipod touches as an additional controller...
  - shawndumas 14y ago
    With AirPlay Apple TV has apps right now. http://firemint.com/2011/guide-to-setting-up-airplay-and-party-play/ http://firemint.com/2011/guide-to-setting-up-airplay-and-par...
    - thehodge 14y ago
      But you still need a device to stream it to... I've been looking for a way of running our conference using apple tv's I'd love to be able to send all the keynote presentations to the apple tv without having to have a device to stream them..
Tyrant505 14y ago
Jobs threw a lot of things away that may have been sufficient, but always wanted to push for even greater implementations and innovations in new products/services.
badclient 14y ago
Isn't Apple TV one of the less successful Apple products? Some may even say a rare flop(by Apple standards). The bar is very high for Apple products. The iPod killed the CD player. The iPhone revolutionized the phone market. But the Apple TV? It's yet to cause much disruption.
- jsz0 14y ago
  Hard to say. I think Apple said they sold 3 million of them last year which would make it very successful within the tiny dedicated IPTV set top market. It's not really a finished product yet. The current Apple TV is like the Motorola Rockr. A hint of things to come but definitely not ready to make a big splash. It's interesting to note though that NetFlix says they stream more video to Apple TVs than iPads. So something is definitely starting to happen here but I think we're still a couple of years away from the Apple TV really being a mass market device.
- ugh 14y ago
  Apple always said it's a hobby. Not sure wether that's just rhetoric. At any case, Apple TV has been steadily improving and is selling more and more.
- CC11526 14y ago
  I find it interesting because for all of the hype about Apple's mindshare and marketing prowess a quickly expanding market exists where Apple is a niche player. Internet enabled TV's and boxes are ubiquitous and very popular yet Apple can't make a significant dent in that market despite being an early pioneer.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
jsz0 14y ago
The new UI is temporary just like the previous ones have been. There have been at least 3 major redesigns of the UI so far. They change as needed to introduce new features. The current design is to make room for third party content & services. In this sense the current generation Apple TV is just a place-holder for a future product. Apple has said as much by referring to it as a hobby. What they are doing is laying the groundwork for this future product. AirPlay, iOS Remote, 1080P video, third party services with sign-up and payment, iCloud, etc. The current generation Apple TV is almost just a public beta test of these technologies. When they are ready to do the 'real' Apple TV they will introduce an entirely new UI to go with it. This sort of public R&D isn't what Apple normally does but I think the challenge of building this product requires it. They need to soften the ground a bit. Of course other companies are working on the same things which helps too. People are comfortable with IPTV services. Current residential broadband can keep up fairly well with good 1080P video. The more SmartPhones and tablets sold the closer we are to ditching a dinky multi-button remote control in favor of multi-touch control. The integration with the cloud for re-downloading content and interconnecting different devices solves a ton of usability problems. Step by step each one of these changes are laying the groundwork for something bigger.
stevenp 14y ago
It's interesting -- I've been living in a furnished rental in Hawaii for the last few months where I have a very small TV (maybe 22"?) and I've had my Apple TV hooked up to it since I got here. Before the update, I found it very hard to read the menus across the room, but I do think the new design is much better for smaller screens. I have a feeling the giant blocks would irritate me if I still had my 60" plasma (sob I miss that TV) but for a more modest screen, it really makes life easier. Ideally I'd love to be able to mirror the menus in the Remote app so that I don't have to squint to read the Netflix reviews and descriptions.
encoderer 14y ago
A few of the other engineers I work with think I'm crazy, but I'd bet $100 that in the next few years, Apple will produce a TV itself and remove this product from the market. The well-known comment in the Jobs biography tipped their hand about a further commitment to TV. Literally everybody I've talked to about it balks at the idea of a full-on Apple tv set. That it's too murky, too much tangling with cable providers. Too much competition with existing set makers without the ability to really revolutionize the form-factor like cell phones. That instead they'd just give you a box that you can plug into an existing TV to make it good. But Jobs (and Apple) have always been about "the whole widget." Moreover, they have a lot of experience building really great large displays. Besides, TVs need it now. So-called "Smart" IP tv's are the future. TV's already have Apps. And the experience sucks because Samsung, LG, Sony, etc, are not in the business of making first-class software products. I believe the line where steve said he'd "finally cracked it." Because a lot of us I'm sure can see the rough outline of a product there. Let it run iOS. Let me remote control it with my other iOS devices. Let me integrate iTunes/etc in a first-class way. The murky part is: How exactly do you deal with existing cable content. Can I add HBO West to my home screen like an "app" right alongside the HBO Go app? That integration of these 2 side-by-side systems of content delivery (Cable and Internet) is the detail that I think needs to be "cracked." How great would it be to see this product emerge as posthumous part of Jobs' legacy..
- stuartmemo 14y ago
  Apple will produce a TV itself and remove this product from the market The current Apple TV exists as a low cost way of encouraging people to buy movies from iTunes. There's no way they'd get rid of that.
  - encoderer 14y ago
    Perhaps. But I think you have the economics backwards. Apple has said before that they break even from iTunes. iTunes exists as a low cost way for them to sell more devices. Apple has a history of simple product lines. Supposing apple did release a tv, how would it make any sense to have a product called "AppleTV" that isn't a tv? Maybe you're right, but I stand by my own estimation.
davidedicillo 14y ago
He also threw out the concept of native apps until he changed his mind she he saw it made sense.
DannoHung 14y ago
I really like the new design, but I want folders so I can put all the sports junk that I don't subscribe to away in a corner.
pedalpete 14y ago
For those not sure what the new UI looks like, there's an image here http://www.cultofmac.com/155915/steve-jobs-hated-the-new-apple-tv-ui-but-apple-changed-it-anyway/ http://www.cultofmac.com/155915/steve-jobs-hated-the-new-app...
j45 14y ago
It's known that Jobs wasn't always right and employees actively did things away / around him that were right. If Steve Jobs had his way keyboards would have no arrow keys. I'm glad my Mac has arrow keys :)
petermcd 14y ago
Here's the follow-up article on TechCrunch talking with the guy who tweeted this explaining why the fact Jobs threw away the UI isn't such a big deal: http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/24/jobs-apple-tv-margolis/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/24/jobs-apple-tv-margolis/
- dhugiaskmak 14y ago
  Seems like a very long leap from "Now there is nobody to say 'no' to bad design." to "The new UI is no doubt cleaner, simpler, easier to use, and more in line with the now-popular iPad UI and Lion’s Launchpad." If I weren't wearing such a well-constructed tinfoil hat I'd say that someone got a call from an Apple legal employee who wasn't happy to be working on a Saturday.
curtisspope 14y ago
knew it.not really. it just looked odd

58 points by i_cannot_hack 14y ago

I haven't used the latest iteration of the AppleTV UI, but I did use the last version, and I found it to be pretty terrible. Any time text input was needed, it was a nightmare. I don't know if the new UI took care of that problem, but coupled with the remote (clearly a case of aesthetics chosen of utility), I found the entire experience to be decidedly less enjoyable than any other living room interface - XBox360, PS3, or any cable set top box.

spullara 14y ago
You can use your iPad / iPhone for text input -- but that isn't what this article is addressing. They moved from a text menu type selection system to a grid of applications type system.

protomyth 14y ago

I get the feeling we are going to get these type of stories for the next several years. "Steve Jobs wouldn't have done that" or "Steve Jobs didn't like that" will be a pretty good link-baited headline. He assembled a good crew of people who are going to do some things different (e.g. charity contributions). Some of the things might have been left as "notes / advise" by Steve Jobs in his last days and some might be new thinking. We won't really know the whole story. Apple changes every day is the only constant.

ugh 14y ago

The Apple TV had numerous different UIs over the years, so it's safe to conclude that Steve Jobs also said yes to a UI in the past that he should have thrown out. Steve Jobs mad numerous false calls over the years. He can be wrong, you know.

adamjernst 14y ago

I found the new Apple TV UI to be a significant improvement, for what it's worth.

garyrichardson 14y ago
And yet, I find it annoying to look at compared to the old UI. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but for the size of the display and the amount of info that can be displayed on it I feel like text is better than huge icons.
jws 14y ago
I find it a mixed bag. I think I navigate it faster, but it is a grid of random technicolor barf. They should take the next step, let me exile the stuff I never use and bump up the size of the stuff I do use, or open an App ecosystem and let me add more stuff that I do want to use. Unrelated speculation: The Apple TV has been repeatedly characterized as a "hobby" by Apple. I'm sure they'd love to distribute all major TV and movie content, but they can't get the content owners in line. But what happens now if they do get the content owners to agree to the business model of being paid by happy consumers? The Apple brand is so aglow, and the cost of the AppleTV unit so low, that the demand could go from near zero to internet crushing levels in a matter of weeks. They may have lost the luxury of a controlled ramp up.
andrewtbham 14y ago
I agree... the old interface was a menu. i didn't like it very much.

davidcann 14y ago

The Apple TV seems to be moving toward an app based approach, so perhaps this UI simply makes more sense in the current ecosystem.

thehodge 14y ago
When the Apple TV gets apps I think we will start to see the beginning of the end for Nintendo... thats the iPod for on the move and the Apple TV for the home casual gaming.. You can buy a wii game for £40 or almost 80 59p silly games on the Apple tv... and using iphones / ipod touches as an additional controller...
- shawndumas 14y ago
  With AirPlay Apple TV has apps right now. http://firemint.com/2011/guide-to-setting-up-airplay-and-party-play/ http://firemint.com/2011/guide-to-setting-up-airplay-and-par...
  - thehodge 14y ago
    But you still need a device to stream it to... I've been looking for a way of running our conference using apple tv's I'd love to be able to send all the keynote presentations to the apple tv without having to have a device to stream them..

Tyrant505 14y ago

Jobs threw a lot of things away that may have been sufficient, but always wanted to push for even greater implementations and innovations in new products/services.

badclient 14y ago

Isn't Apple TV one of the less successful Apple products? Some may even say a rare flop(by Apple standards). The bar is very high for Apple products. The iPod killed the CD player. The iPhone revolutionized the phone market. But the Apple TV? It's yet to cause much disruption.

jsz0 14y ago
Hard to say. I think Apple said they sold 3 million of them last year which would make it very successful within the tiny dedicated IPTV set top market. It's not really a finished product yet. The current Apple TV is like the Motorola Rockr. A hint of things to come but definitely not ready to make a big splash. It's interesting to note though that NetFlix says they stream more video to Apple TVs than iPads. So something is definitely starting to happen here but I think we're still a couple of years away from the Apple TV really being a mass market device.
ugh 14y ago
Apple always said it's a hobby. Not sure wether that's just rhetoric. At any case, Apple TV has been steadily improving and is selling more and more.
CC11526 14y ago
I find it interesting because for all of the hype about Apple's mindshare and marketing prowess a quickly expanding market exists where Apple is a niche player. Internet enabled TV's and boxes are ubiquitous and very popular yet Apple can't make a significant dent in that market despite being an early pioneer.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

jsz0 14y ago

The new UI is temporary just like the previous ones have been. There have been at least 3 major redesigns of the UI so far. They change as needed to introduce new features. The current design is to make room for third party content & services. In this sense the current generation Apple TV is just a place-holder for a future product. Apple has said as much by referring to it as a hobby. What they are doing is laying the groundwork for this future product. AirPlay, iOS Remote, 1080P video, third party services with sign-up and payment, iCloud, etc. The current generation Apple TV is almost just a public beta test of these technologies. When they are ready to do the 'real' Apple TV they will introduce an entirely new UI to go with it. This sort of public R&D isn't what Apple normally does but I think the challenge of building this product requires it. They need to soften the ground a bit. Of course other companies are working on the same things which helps too. People are comfortable with IPTV services. Current residential broadband can keep up fairly well with good 1080P video. The more SmartPhones and tablets sold the closer we are to ditching a dinky multi-button remote control in favor of multi-touch control. The integration with the cloud for re-downloading content and interconnecting different devices solves a ton of usability problems. Step by step each one of these changes are laying the groundwork for something bigger.

stevenp 14y ago

It's interesting -- I've been living in a furnished rental in Hawaii for the last few months where I have a very small TV (maybe 22"?) and I've had my Apple TV hooked up to it since I got here. Before the update, I found it very hard to read the menus across the room, but I do think the new design is much better for smaller screens. I have a feeling the giant blocks would irritate me if I still had my 60" plasma (sob I miss that TV) but for a more modest screen, it really makes life easier. Ideally I'd love to be able to mirror the menus in the Remote app so that I don't have to squint to read the Netflix reviews and descriptions.

encoderer 14y ago

A few of the other engineers I work with think I'm crazy, but I'd bet $100 that in the next few years, Apple will produce a TV itself and remove this product from the market. The well-known comment in the Jobs biography tipped their hand about a further commitment to TV. Literally everybody I've talked to about it balks at the idea of a full-on Apple tv set. That it's too murky, too much tangling with cable providers. Too much competition with existing set makers without the ability to really revolutionize the form-factor like cell phones. That instead they'd just give you a box that you can plug into an existing TV to make it good. But Jobs (and Apple) have always been about "the whole widget." Moreover, they have a lot of experience building really great large displays. Besides, TVs need it now. So-called "Smart" IP tv's are the future. TV's already have Apps. And the experience sucks because Samsung, LG, Sony, etc, are not in the business of making first-class software products. I believe the line where steve said he'd "finally cracked it." Because a lot of us I'm sure can see the rough outline of a product there. Let it run iOS. Let me remote control it with my other iOS devices. Let me integrate iTunes/etc in a first-class way. The murky part is: How exactly do you deal with existing cable content. Can I add HBO West to my home screen like an "app" right alongside the HBO Go app? That integration of these 2 side-by-side systems of content delivery (Cable and Internet) is the detail that I think needs to be "cracked." How great would it be to see this product emerge as posthumous part of Jobs' legacy..

stuartmemo 14y ago
Apple will produce a TV itself and remove this product from the market The current Apple TV exists as a low cost way of encouraging people to buy movies from iTunes. There's no way they'd get rid of that.
- encoderer 14y ago
  Perhaps. But I think you have the economics backwards. Apple has said before that they break even from iTunes. iTunes exists as a low cost way for them to sell more devices. Apple has a history of simple product lines. Supposing apple did release a tv, how would it make any sense to have a product called "AppleTV" that isn't a tv? Maybe you're right, but I stand by my own estimation.

davidedicillo 14y ago

He also threw out the concept of native apps until he changed his mind she he saw it made sense.

DannoHung 14y ago

I really like the new design, but I want folders so I can put all the sports junk that I don't subscribe to away in a corner.

pedalpete 14y ago

For those not sure what the new UI looks like, there's an image here http://www.cultofmac.com/155915/steve-jobs-hated-the-new-apple-tv-ui-but-apple-changed-it-anyway/ http://www.cultofmac.com/155915/steve-jobs-hated-the-new-app...

j45 14y ago

It's known that Jobs wasn't always right and employees actively did things away / around him that were right. If Steve Jobs had his way keyboards would have no arrow keys. I'm glad my Mac has arrow keys :)

petermcd 14y ago

Here's the follow-up article on TechCrunch talking with the guy who tweeted this explaining why the fact Jobs threw away the UI isn't such a big deal: http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/24/jobs-apple-tv-margolis/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/24/jobs-apple-tv-margolis/

dhugiaskmak 14y ago
Seems like a very long leap from "Now there is nobody to say 'no' to bad design." to "The new UI is no doubt cleaner, simpler, easier to use, and more in line with the now-popular iPad UI and Lion’s Launchpad." If I weren't wearing such a well-constructed tinfoil hat I'd say that someone got a call from an Apple legal employee who wasn't happy to be working on a Saturday.

curtisspope 14y ago

knew it.not really. it just looked odd