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My prediction is that geo-engineering will be done when a certain death/disturbance threshold will have been reached (too many climate refugees for example and

by cmews 3y ago

My prediction is that geo-engineering will be done when a certain death/disturbance threshold will have been reached (too many climate refugees for example and western world can't achieve a closed border, or too many weather disasters that hit the western world and populations are convinced it is because of global warming). However I don't think we will reach it in the next 5-10 years, but maybe after that period. Also curious if the earth maybe has some tricks (last one I can recall was more clouds were causing more cooling than expected in the climate models) that will invalidate the current climate change models.

gdilla 3y ago
some crazy person or country will bring the reckoning closer (or render it moot) by leveraging the unrest and fear, by blowing things up.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  As is tradition. Honestly if that's what does us in then humanity as a whole officially get the final Darwin award.
pier25 3y ago
The 2030s is when I think things are going to start getting serious.
- netsharc 3y ago
  I think 2-3 years, tbh.. it's a doom spiral.
ethanbond 3y ago
Why would you think we have tricks up our sleeves? What’s that mean “geo-engineering will be done when…” The whole problem is we aren’t capable of doing what we know needs to be done.
- cmews 3y ago
  When we can burn fossil fuels to impact the atmosphere that cause climate change then we can also pump other gasses that will have a cooling effect. We aren’t doing much at the moment because there aren’t economic incentives to do so, but that can change if we have policy changes.
  - japhyr 3y ago
    Climate change is an unintended effect of roughly two centuries of growth and development. It seems much easier to have unintended effects, than to get exactly the effects you want with from a global geoengineering campaign on the first try.
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      > global geoengineering campaign You're still being quite optimistic... This plays out with a country like Bangladesh or India, under duress, ignoring everyone else and attempting to do it themselves
  - jfengel 3y ago
    We aren't doing it because pumping gases into the atmosphere does more than just reduce temperature. Sulfur compounds, for example, dissolve in the clouds and make them acidic. So does the CO2 itself. The oceans are getting more acidic already, killing shellfish and throwing off food webs. Throwing additional geoengineering on top of the geoengineering we're already doing will almost certainly cause as many problems as it solves. It would be so much simpler, cheaper, and more effective to just stop digging carbon out of the ground and putting it in the sky.
    - dharma1 3y ago
      I read somewhere that fine water mist sprayed into the atmosphere may have the same reflective effect as sulphur from the shipping industry without the negatives. I’m fairly certain we will resort to this type of geo engineering soon - cutting down energy consumption is not a viable path, it’s just not going to happen. Quite the contrary, humanity’s energy consumption is likely to grow a lot. I agree with you about keeping carbon in the ground - but it will only happen for economic reasons in reality (ie. solar being cheaper than oil and gas) and the transition will take decades. I hope we don’t hit irreversible feedback effects in the next couple of decades! I know every generation feels special - the pinnacle of humanity, a special time - but this time around it really feels like what happens in the next 20-30 years can have make it or break it consequences for later generations (not just climate, also chemical pollution, risk of nuclear/biological weapons use and possibly AI - though that could also solve a lot of our problems)
biztos 3y ago
I'm not ready to predict, but based on what I saw in Europe in 2015[0] and how things[1] are developing[2] lately[3], I see this as a very plausible outcome. The US and EU countries get more migrants than they can handle; resentment grows; attempts to solve the problem with bureaucracy and policing fail spectacularly; calls for outright violence grow louder; and the well-meaning citizenry agrees that Something Must Be Done! Geo-engineering is something, and it will be done. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_European_migrant_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_European_migrant_crisis [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/10/us/migrant-crisis-massachusetts-woburn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/10/us/migrant-crisis-massach... [2]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigration-us-mexico-border-crossings-july-arizona-desert/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigration-us-mexico-border-cr... [3]: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-migration-policy/eastern-mediterranean-route/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-migration-pol...
- moffkalast 3y ago
  So we basically have two possible futures ahead of us: - we make an AGI or find a human genius that figures out a way to make it work, in which case we're all good - we try it with known methods, it fails and we possibly go extinct faster in the worst case scenario Fun times. No pressure. On the bright side I suppose it only makes sense to plan for success though, since if we fail then we're dead anyway.
thomasahle 3y ago
> My prediction is that geo-engineering will be done when a certain death/disturbance threshold will have been reached People seem to be accepting "the new normal" very fast. I'm not sure geo-engineering will be popular, since the status quo bias that's currently preventing us from reducing fossil fuels, will also stop any "artificial weather manipulation".
- Timon3 3y ago
  But let's be fair - "reducing fossil fuel consumption" and "artificial weather manipulation" are on completely different levels in regards to dangers. Nothing bad will happen if we suddenly stopped all fossil fuel consumption and replaced it with renewable energy. We don't know what kind of bad things can happen with artificial weather manipulation, because we haven't really done that before, and you can't really test the impacts in a closed experiment.
  - phreeza 3y ago
    I think it's not really clear that nothing bad would happen if we stopped fossil fuel consumption right now. It would be pretty massive perturbation on a complex system. I think we should still do it because the alternatives are even worse, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking there are risk free paths out of the pickle we are in.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      It seems reasonable to me to assume that nothing bad would happen if we stopped fossil fuel consumption right now. The ecosystems on our planet have only had fossil fuel emissions added for around 200 years, and in that time these emissions have had a very negative effect on the whole system. If we stop adding these we return to the normal which has been ongoing for millions of years. It's not a perturbation, it's stopping a perturbation. By what mechanism would you expect something bad to suddenly happen?
      - AnimalMuppet 3y ago

by cmews 3y ago

gdilla 3y ago

some crazy person or country will bring the reckoning closer (or render it moot) by leveraging the unrest and fear, by blowing things up.

moffkalast 3y ago
As is tradition. Honestly if that's what does us in then humanity as a whole officially get the final Darwin award.

pier25 3y ago

The 2030s is when I think things are going to start getting serious.

netsharc 3y ago
I think 2-3 years, tbh.. it's a doom spiral.

ethanbond 3y ago

Why would you think we have tricks up our sleeves? What’s that mean “geo-engineering will be done when…” The whole problem is we aren’t capable of doing what we know needs to be done.

cmews 3y ago
When we can burn fossil fuels to impact the atmosphere that cause climate change then we can also pump other gasses that will have a cooling effect. We aren’t doing much at the moment because there aren’t economic incentives to do so, but that can change if we have policy changes.
- japhyr 3y ago
  Climate change is an unintended effect of roughly two centuries of growth and development. It seems much easier to have unintended effects, than to get exactly the effects you want with from a global geoengineering campaign on the first try.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    > global geoengineering campaign You're still being quite optimistic... This plays out with a country like Bangladesh or India, under duress, ignoring everyone else and attempting to do it themselves
- jfengel 3y ago
  We aren't doing it because pumping gases into the atmosphere does more than just reduce temperature. Sulfur compounds, for example, dissolve in the clouds and make them acidic. So does the CO2 itself. The oceans are getting more acidic already, killing shellfish and throwing off food webs. Throwing additional geoengineering on top of the geoengineering we're already doing will almost certainly cause as many problems as it solves. It would be so much simpler, cheaper, and more effective to just stop digging carbon out of the ground and putting it in the sky.
  - dharma1 3y ago
    I read somewhere that fine water mist sprayed into the atmosphere may have the same reflective effect as sulphur from the shipping industry without the negatives. I’m fairly certain we will resort to this type of geo engineering soon - cutting down energy consumption is not a viable path, it’s just not going to happen. Quite the contrary, humanity’s energy consumption is likely to grow a lot. I agree with you about keeping carbon in the ground - but it will only happen for economic reasons in reality (ie. solar being cheaper than oil and gas) and the transition will take decades. I hope we don’t hit irreversible feedback effects in the next couple of decades! I know every generation feels special - the pinnacle of humanity, a special time - but this time around it really feels like what happens in the next 20-30 years can have make it or break it consequences for later generations (not just climate, also chemical pollution, risk of nuclear/biological weapons use and possibly AI - though that could also solve a lot of our problems)

biztos 3y ago

I'm not ready to predict, but based on what I saw in Europe in 2015[0] and how things[1] are developing[2] lately[3], I see this as a very plausible outcome. The US and EU countries get more migrants than they can handle; resentment grows; attempts to solve the problem with bureaucracy and policing fail spectacularly; calls for outright violence grow louder; and the well-meaning citizenry agrees that Something Must Be Done! Geo-engineering is something, and it will be done. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_European_migrant_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_European_migrant_crisis [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/10/us/migrant-crisis-massachusetts-woburn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/10/us/migrant-crisis-massach... [2]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigration-us-mexico-border-crossings-july-arizona-desert/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigration-us-mexico-border-cr... [3]: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-migration-policy/eastern-mediterranean-route/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-migration-pol...

moffkalast 3y ago
So we basically have two possible futures ahead of us: - we make an AGI or find a human genius that figures out a way to make it work, in which case we're all good - we try it with known methods, it fails and we possibly go extinct faster in the worst case scenario Fun times. No pressure. On the bright side I suppose it only makes sense to plan for success though, since if we fail then we're dead anyway.

thomasahle 3y ago

> My prediction is that geo-engineering will be done when a certain death/disturbance threshold will have been reached People seem to be accepting "the new normal" very fast. I'm not sure geo-engineering will be popular, since the status quo bias that's currently preventing us from reducing fossil fuels, will also stop any "artificial weather manipulation".

Timon3 3y ago
But let's be fair - "reducing fossil fuel consumption" and "artificial weather manipulation" are on completely different levels in regards to dangers. Nothing bad will happen if we suddenly stopped all fossil fuel consumption and replaced it with renewable energy. We don't know what kind of bad things can happen with artificial weather manipulation, because we haven't really done that before, and you can't really test the impacts in a closed experiment.
- phreeza 3y ago
  I think it's not really clear that nothing bad would happen if we stopped fossil fuel consumption right now. It would be pretty massive perturbation on a complex system. I think we should still do it because the alternatives are even worse, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking there are risk free paths out of the pickle we are in.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    It seems reasonable to me to assume that nothing bad would happen if we stopped fossil fuel consumption right now. The ecosystems on our planet have only had fossil fuel emissions added for around 200 years, and in that time these emissions have had a very negative effect on the whole system. If we stop adding these we return to the normal which has been ongoing for millions of years. It's not a perturbation, it's stopping a perturbation. By what mechanism would you expect something bad to suddenly happen?
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago