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I find it ridiculous that at a time when US workers had all the power after decades of no power at all (the last couple of years), they prioritized WFH benefits

I find it ridiculous that at a time when US workers had all the power after decades of no power at all (the last couple of years), they prioritized WFH benefits which only serve to weaken any individual worker’s standing in the market. If there is no advantage to your job being done while being physically collocated within the US, there is no advantage to your job being done by someone in the US. What 90% of the people commenting here don’t seem to realize is that their argument for WFH implicitly states that the fact that they were being paid more than their counterparts in cheaper locales means they were being overpaid. And yeah, some of the LCOL folks are going Amen to that, except even the lowest cost of living employees is a few times more expensive than counterparts in Asia, South America, Eastern Europe and even Western Europe. Jobs are more likely to move from LCOL and HCOL US locations to cheaper places abroad than from HCOL to LCOL US locations because the HCOL/LCOL US cost multiple is somewhere at 1.25 to 1.5 at most, whereas the US LCOL/place abroad cost multiple is closer to 2-4x.

borroka 3y ago
"If there is no advantage to your job being done while being physically collocated within the US, there is no advantage to your job being done by someone in the US." Time zone still makes a difference, there are very few jobs that can be completely or largely asynchronous. Then, the assumptions are that talent is everywhere, which is true if we ignore the numbers but focus only on the existence of talent (i.e., 1 talented person is enough), and that the work culture is somewhat irrelevant, i.e., what matters is throwing warm bodies, cannon fodder if you will, at the problem. Now, anyone who has dealt with outsourced in-house IT services to India or other cheaper countries in terms of wages has quickly recognized that companies have traded paying more and having problems solved for paying less and having the problems persist. I am speaking generally and without any trace of discrimination in my thinking, I am just observing. If you allow me an analogy, for many decades African soccer teams have been on the verge of "exploding" on the international stage, perhaps winning the World Cup (think of the Nigerian team in 1994) because of their undeniable raw talent. But we are still here, 30 years later, hoping for that victory, with the best results achieved by a Moroccan team full of players raised professionally elsewhere. Culture is important, and not easy to transmit or acquire, especially when physically elsewhere. If I had stayed in my home country and worked remotely for a U.S. company, I would have done a much poorer job at work, due to my lack of knowledge of U.S. work culture and "proper" ways of working.
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  Canada has most of the cultural and timezone compatibility and yet their wages are <40% of the SF wages. No wonder bulk of the new hiring in our team has been in Canada after doing two rounds of layoffs in the US. Add to that, Canada has been inviting talented migrants in bulk (good for Canada and those migrants!) and that is a recipe for disaster for high tech wages in the US. Again, asking for remote work is just digging your own graveyard.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rhaway84773 3y ago
    Also there’s a massive continent called South America in the same time zone. Further, there’s also large swathes of Central America. But this claim that time zone matters isn’t even true in the way the GP thinks. If time zone does indeed matter, it strengthens the case to move the entire team wholesale to cheaper locales than keep anyone hired in the US.
    - borroka 3y ago
      This is all very theoretical in nature. In fact, I don't know of any U.S.-based company who successfully outsourced their whole operations to South America, India, or, as the comment above the one I am responding to proposed, Canada. Time zone is one reason. The other is about work culture, ways of culture, schools, the academic world, the media, the circle of friends that often overlaps with the circle of professional acquaintances, the expectations.
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        A big chunk of our engineering and product headcount has moved to Canada. Looking at our engineering org, Canada has disproportionate number of employees compared to the US.
- rhaway84773 3y ago
RestlessMind 3y ago
Amen to that. I have written about this a few times before. US workers clamoring for WFH/remote are thinking only in the short-term. If jobs can be shipped to South Dakota, they can be shipped to Colombia or Mexico as well.
- sarchertech 3y ago
  WFH either works or it doesn’t. If it works, it will happen. Outsourcing either works or it doesn’t. Short of regulation, if it works, it will happen. Workers pushing for work from home isn’t going to change this. If in office is a competitive advantage, companies will pay more for in office employees. If it’s not a competitive advantage, no amount of workers not pushing for WFH will cause companies to pay for offices.
  - JambalayaJim 3y ago
    Clearly corporate leaders believe that in-office is a competitive advantage. That’s why they are pushing RTO, conspiracy theories aside. If they are instead forced to offer universal wfh as a concession to the labour market, then yes, outsourcing might be more attractive.
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      Who is forcing them to offer universal WFH? Are you saying people pushing for WFH are going to be able to force WFH on every employee and every company?
      - JambalayaJim 3y ago
        I’m not saying people who are pushing for WFH will be successful, I’m speaking of a hypothetical situation.
        sarchertech 3y ago
        No one is pushing for universal work from home, so there’s nothing to succeed at. I’ve never heard anyone say that they think no one should be allowed to work from an office.

borroka 3y ago

"If there is no advantage to your job being done while being physically collocated within the US, there is no advantage to your job being done by someone in the US." Time zone still makes a difference, there are very few jobs that can be completely or largely asynchronous. Then, the assumptions are that talent is everywhere, which is true if we ignore the numbers but focus only on the existence of talent (i.e., 1 talented person is enough), and that the work culture is somewhat irrelevant, i.e., what matters is throwing warm bodies, cannon fodder if you will, at the problem. Now, anyone who has dealt with outsourced in-house IT services to India or other cheaper countries in terms of wages has quickly recognized that companies have traded paying more and having problems solved for paying less and having the problems persist. I am speaking generally and without any trace of discrimination in my thinking, I am just observing. If you allow me an analogy, for many decades African soccer teams have been on the verge of "exploding" on the international stage, perhaps winning the World Cup (think of the Nigerian team in 1994) because of their undeniable raw talent. But we are still here, 30 years later, hoping for that victory, with the best results achieved by a Moroccan team full of players raised professionally elsewhere. Culture is important, and not easy to transmit or acquire, especially when physically elsewhere. If I had stayed in my home country and worked remotely for a U.S. company, I would have done a much poorer job at work, due to my lack of knowledge of U.S. work culture and "proper" ways of working.

RestlessMind 3y ago
Canada has most of the cultural and timezone compatibility and yet their wages are <40% of the SF wages. No wonder bulk of the new hiring in our team has been in Canada after doing two rounds of layoffs in the US. Add to that, Canada has been inviting talented migrants in bulk (good for Canada and those migrants!) and that is a recipe for disaster for high tech wages in the US. Again, asking for remote work is just digging your own graveyard.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rhaway84773 3y ago
  Also there’s a massive continent called South America in the same time zone. Further, there’s also large swathes of Central America. But this claim that time zone matters isn’t even true in the way the GP thinks. If time zone does indeed matter, it strengthens the case to move the entire team wholesale to cheaper locales than keep anyone hired in the US.
  - borroka 3y ago
    This is all very theoretical in nature. In fact, I don't know of any U.S.-based company who successfully outsourced their whole operations to South America, India, or, as the comment above the one I am responding to proposed, Canada. Time zone is one reason. The other is about work culture, ways of culture, schools, the academic world, the media, the circle of friends that often overlaps with the circle of professional acquaintances, the expectations.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      A big chunk of our engineering and product headcount has moved to Canada. Looking at our engineering org, Canada has disproportionate number of employees compared to the US.
rhaway84773 3y ago

RestlessMind 3y ago

Amen to that. I have written about this a few times before. US workers clamoring for WFH/remote are thinking only in the short-term. If jobs can be shipped to South Dakota, they can be shipped to Colombia or Mexico as well.

sarchertech 3y ago
WFH either works or it doesn’t. If it works, it will happen. Outsourcing either works or it doesn’t. Short of regulation, if it works, it will happen. Workers pushing for work from home isn’t going to change this. If in office is a competitive advantage, companies will pay more for in office employees. If it’s not a competitive advantage, no amount of workers not pushing for WFH will cause companies to pay for offices.
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  Clearly corporate leaders believe that in-office is a competitive advantage. That’s why they are pushing RTO, conspiracy theories aside. If they are instead forced to offer universal wfh as a concession to the labour market, then yes, outsourcing might be more attractive.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    Who is forcing them to offer universal WFH? Are you saying people pushing for WFH are going to be able to force WFH on every employee and every company?
    - JambalayaJim 3y ago
      I’m not saying people who are pushing for WFH will be successful, I’m speaking of a hypothetical situation.
      - sarchertech 3y ago
        No one is pushing for universal work from home, so there’s nothing to succeed at. I’ve never heard anyone say that they think no one should be allowed to work from an office.