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A core element of socialism is that all industries and natural resources are state-owned. European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they a

A core element of socialism is that all industries and natural resources are state-owned. European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so.

camgunz 3y ago
Sure, I'm saying: - there are big differences between US capitalism and European social democracy - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time > European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so. Ehhhh communist movements, multiple devastating wars, and unions had a hand in it too.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time Eh? Which ones? As a European this is very much news to be; not much seizing of the means of production going on. If anything, some divesting of the means of production; heavily regulated privatisation of state energy, transport etc monopolies has been going on all over Western Europe for a while. I realise that in the US, the colloquial definition of ‘socialist’ these days is more or less “not actively going around kicking poor people”, but the idea that Europe is becoming more socialist by any reasonable definition is a bit out there.
  - camgunz 3y ago
    There's a recent rightward shift for sure, but long term benefits are increasing, unions are gaining power, and you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies. This is the power dynamic described by socialism: people control companies, not the other way around.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      >you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies No, you are seeing governments force green policies against the will of the majority.
- rhaway84773 3y ago
  https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking This is a ranking of economic freedom which strongly aligns with capitalism. The U.S. ranks 25th behind European countries like Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Iceland, etc.
  - camgunz 3y ago
    It looks like this ranks things like freedom to invest, trade, etc., none of which are incompatible with socialism.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      Investment directly implies private ownership of the means of production.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Technically, kind of, but not exactly. Anytime this point comes up, someone on the right/Republican will say any taxation is Socialism, that Europe is Socialist. So, to compare Europe/Nordic socialist policies, to US policies is not a large leap. You can't just say, "well technically that isn't really socialism so we can't use that as an example in this argument", when literally for a decade the 'right' has specifically called them socialist.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >taxation is Socialism Nonsensical strawman. Socialism has a real meaning and "taxation" isn't it.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Tell that to Republicans. If 50% of the population does believe that. Then I'm forced to make the point, to address it in that way. I know this, but there is 50/50 chance that whoever is posting on the internet does not know it.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      America has taxation.
      - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        Yes? and The US also has regulations. And Republicans argue that both are socialism. Half of the country thinks "anything the government does is socialism" and campaigns to stop it, or get rid of it, or handicaps it, or how it is just evil and control. Basically to the right: 'government' = 'socialism'. And they haven't realized yet they are arguing for anarchy.
        constantcrying 3y ago
        >"anything the government does is socialism" I thought republicans wanted to strengthen borders? I do not follow US politics, but I never heard anyone advocating that taxation should be abolished. Seems a bizarre claim. Here in Germany parties publish the platforms they are running on, is there something similar in the US?
Kamq 3y ago
Minor quibble. The industries generally need to only be "socially-owned" rather than state-owned. Though I will admit that state-ownership is the most common in practice. More of an academic point though, as Europe, as a whole, is still basically completely capitalist under this definition as well. Edit: An example of a socially-owned company that is not state-owned would be an employee owned company.

A core element of socialism is that all industries and natural resources are state-owned. European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so.

camgunz 3y ago

Sure, I'm saying: - there are big differences between US capitalism and European social democracy - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time > European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so. Ehhhh communist movements, multiple devastating wars, and unions had a hand in it too.

rsynnott 3y ago
> - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time Eh? Which ones? As a European this is very much news to be; not much seizing of the means of production going on. If anything, some divesting of the means of production; heavily regulated privatisation of state energy, transport etc monopolies has been going on all over Western Europe for a while. I realise that in the US, the colloquial definition of ‘socialist’ these days is more or less “not actively going around kicking poor people”, but the idea that Europe is becoming more socialist by any reasonable definition is a bit out there.
- camgunz 3y ago
  There's a recent rightward shift for sure, but long term benefits are increasing, unions are gaining power, and you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies. This is the power dynamic described by socialism: people control companies, not the other way around.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    >you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies No, you are seeing governments force green policies against the will of the majority.
rhaway84773 3y ago
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking This is a ranking of economic freedom which strongly aligns with capitalism. The U.S. ranks 25th behind European countries like Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Iceland, etc.
- camgunz 3y ago
  It looks like this ranks things like freedom to invest, trade, etc., none of which are incompatible with socialism.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    Investment directly implies private ownership of the means of production.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

Technically, kind of, but not exactly. Anytime this point comes up, someone on the right/Republican will say any taxation is Socialism, that Europe is Socialist. So, to compare Europe/Nordic socialist policies, to US policies is not a large leap. You can't just say, "well technically that isn't really socialism so we can't use that as an example in this argument", when literally for a decade the 'right' has specifically called them socialist.

constantcrying 3y ago
>taxation is Socialism Nonsensical strawman. Socialism has a real meaning and "taxation" isn't it.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Tell that to Republicans. If 50% of the population does believe that. Then I'm forced to make the point, to address it in that way. I know this, but there is 50/50 chance that whoever is posting on the internet does not know it.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    America has taxation.
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      Yes? and The US also has regulations. And Republicans argue that both are socialism. Half of the country thinks "anything the government does is socialism" and campaigns to stop it, or get rid of it, or handicaps it, or how it is just evil and control. Basically to the right: 'government' = 'socialism'. And they haven't realized yet they are arguing for anarchy.
      - constantcrying 3y ago
        >"anything the government does is socialism" I thought republicans wanted to strengthen borders? I do not follow US politics, but I never heard anyone advocating that taxation should be abolished. Seems a bizarre claim. Here in Germany parties publish the platforms they are running on, is there something similar in the US?

Kamq 3y ago

Minor quibble. The industries generally need to only be "socially-owned" rather than state-owned. Though I will admit that state-ownership is the most common in practice. More of an academic point though, as Europe, as a whole, is still basically completely capitalist under this definition as well. Edit: An example of a socially-owned company that is not state-owned would be an employee owned company.