5 ms·

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't rea

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
To be pedantic, I think it does matter there, but the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes. And it can vary too, mass produced / generic chips can be more cost efficient if they can make more of them on a single wafer.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes. I thought a big part of the reason why that's the case in general is because the old fabs that house those old processes have already been depreciated - customers basically only pay for maintenance and the of raw materials. But that doesn't really apply to brand new fabs.
  - brmgb 3y ago
    R&D is a significant part of what you have to amortise. I'm guessing they are going to pay the machinery significantly less than if it was brand new. Part of it might even be relocated from another fab. Yields should also be better. That leaves the building but I'm guessing the German state must be generous here and that should help offset that.
crote 3y ago
That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it comes to doing what it was actually supposed to do. Europe already has plenty of fabs like these which did not require billion-euro handouts.
- junon 3y ago
  > Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines That's great news for Germany then.
  - Lionga 3y ago
    If they want to produce more ICE cars for the next decades yes.
    - WJW 3y ago
      1. They do want to produce ICE cars for several more decades, yes. 2. It's not as if BEVs are chip-free, and most of the chips used aren't ultra-high performance things that require the very latest generation fab equipment.
    - pantalaimon 3y ago
      Tesla has a large factory in Germany too
    - myrmidon 3y ago
      No. Its irrelevant if you produce electric or combustion vehicles (or even household electronics in general): The biggest demand is for chips on an efficient (read: older) process. You are not going to use some 3nm EUV boondoggle process just to pump out voltage regulators or sub-100MHz microcontrollers, but you need tons of those for pretty much every application. Sure there might be four or five CPUs on a modern process in a modern car, but there are COUNTLESS simpler/slower/cheaper chips required that are made on an older process and this is not gonna change anytime soon.
    - nolist_policy 3y ago
      If anything, BEVs have even more older processes built in for high-power dc-dc conversion, motor driving, battery management etc. Less gigahertz and gigaflop, more kilovolt and kiloampere.
- jasmer 3y ago
  [dead]

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

To be pedantic, I think it does matter there, but the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes. And it can vary too, mass produced / generic chips can be more cost efficient if they can make more of them on a single wafer.

nordsieck 3y ago
> the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes. I thought a big part of the reason why that's the case in general is because the old fabs that house those old processes have already been depreciated - customers basically only pay for maintenance and the of raw materials. But that doesn't really apply to brand new fabs.
- brmgb 3y ago
  R&D is a significant part of what you have to amortise. I'm guessing they are going to pay the machinery significantly less than if it was brand new. Part of it might even be relocated from another fab. Yields should also be better. That leaves the building but I'm guessing the German state must be generous here and that should help offset that.

crote 3y ago

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it comes to doing what it was actually supposed to do. Europe already has plenty of fabs like these which did not require billion-euro handouts.

junon 3y ago
> Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines That's great news for Germany then.
- Lionga 3y ago
  If they want to produce more ICE cars for the next decades yes.
  - WJW 3y ago
    1. They do want to produce ICE cars for several more decades, yes. 2. It's not as if BEVs are chip-free, and most of the chips used aren't ultra-high performance things that require the very latest generation fab equipment.
  - pantalaimon 3y ago
    Tesla has a large factory in Germany too
  - myrmidon 3y ago
    No. Its irrelevant if you produce electric or combustion vehicles (or even household electronics in general): The biggest demand is for chips on an efficient (read: older) process. You are not going to use some 3nm EUV boondoggle process just to pump out voltage regulators or sub-100MHz microcontrollers, but you need tons of those for pretty much every application. Sure there might be four or five CPUs on a modern process in a modern car, but there are COUNTLESS simpler/slower/cheaper chips required that are made on an older process and this is not gonna change anytime soon.
  - nolist_policy 3y ago
    If anything, BEVs have even more older processes built in for high-power dc-dc conversion, motor driving, battery management etc. Less gigahertz and gigaflop, more kilovolt and kiloampere.
jasmer 3y ago
[dead]