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Imho - the driver is being scapegoated here. If you watch the actual video (graphic, don't recommend), the victim only appears for a few frames before the accid

Imho - the driver is being scapegoated here. If you watch the actual video (graphic, don't recommend), the victim only appears for a few frames before the accident. In a normal car where the driver sees them and reacts, at best they hit the brakes at the same time they hit the victim. Distraction doesn't matter when the accident is unavoidable. On the other hand, autonomous breaking systems might have actually made a difference here if they hadn't been disabled (at least in reducing the severity of the accident). And given the conditions, a human might have been driving slower. The driver here had no control over any of this, while their employer did...

zvolsky 3y ago
It is possible that this tragic accident would have happened even if the operator paid full attention, but that is besides the merit of this case. Their job was to supervise an autonomous driving test, and they did not pay full attention at the critical moment, with no justifiable reason for this lack of attention: "Records indicate that streaming began at 9:16 pm and ended at 9:59 pm. Based on an examination of the video captured by the driver-facing camera, Vasquez was looking down toward her right knee 166 times for a total of 6 minutes, 47 seconds during the 21 minutes, 48 seconds preceding the crash. Just prior to the crash, Vasquez was looking at her lap for 5.3 seconds; she looked up half a second before the impact." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  > Their job was to supervise an autonomous driving test The "driver" performed her job flawlessly, by acting exactly as any other "driver" who's been rendered redundant by fully-automated systems. This "driver" exemplified the human indifference to the task when our attention isn't demanded by complete immersion in an interactive experience. By causing the vehicle to start operation, the driver accepted responsibility and liability, per the current laws on SDCs. Therefore, "scapegoat" is a misnomer that wrongly implies innocence or detachment from the sinful deed(s). The driver accepted her fate by signing up and settling into the left-hand front seat.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Per the current laws, but what about per objective ethics? I don't care what is written in the code book.
    - birdyrooster 3y ago
      The person shirking their duty knew the risks and was even profiting from their negligent behavior. Meanwhile a person lost their life who has nothing to gain from this. I blame the employer and the employee. Employers shouldn’t set their employees up to fail, and employees should know a risky proposition when they see it.
      - jcosentino11 3y ago
        This assumes employees have the privilege of walking away from a risky proposition.
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        > Vasquez had previously spent more than four years in prison for two felony convictions — making false statements when obtaining unemployment benefits and attempted armed robbery — before starting work as an Uber driver, according to court records.
      - psd1 3y ago
        The stated promise of self-drive is reduction in accidents. The accident victim didn't sign up for this, but as a member of society she did stand to gain something; to wit, harm reduction. I do see the grim irony, but, nonetheless. Generally, it's the trolley problem. (Although in this specific case there's an element of human fault.)
        taskforcegemini 3y ago
        and if there is no accident, due to intervention of the driver, will the situation even be noted somewhere? in similar threads on hn there are many near miss stories.
- aperson_hello 3y ago
  My point is that even if she had been paying full attention, the outcome wouldn't be different. If Uber hasn't wouldn't disabled AEB, it would have been different. Hence Uber is the most at fault (amongst the two of them - the pedestrian might really be the most at fault here)
gruez 3y ago
> the victim only appears for a few frames before the accident. 1. It only looks that way because the camera has terrible dynamic range. If you've ever driven in real life you'd know you can see further than 100ft in front of you. 2. if for whatever reason you can't see 100ft in front of you (eg. fog), you shouldn't be driving at such a speed where you can't stop in time if an object popped into existence 100ft in front of you. edit: >The forward-looking Uber dashcam did not pick up Herzberg until approximately 1.4 seconds before the collision, suggesting (as the sheriff did) that the crash may have been completely unavoidable even if Vasquez hadn't been distracted in the seconds leading up to the crash.[61] >However, night-time video shot by other motorists in the days following the crash, plus their comments, suggest that the area may have been better illuminated than the dashcam footage, viewed in isolation would suggest. This raises the possibility that Herzberg's appearing so late in the Uber video could merely be an indication that the camera had insufficient sensitivity or was otherwise poorly calibrated for the environment and setting in which it was operating. If these crowd-sourced re-creations are indeed representative of the visibility conditions on the actual night that the crash occurred, then Herzberg would have been visible to Vasquez as soon as there was a clear sight line had Vasquez only been looking ahead, refuting the assertion that the crash was unavoidable.[62] [62]: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-victim-came-from-the-shadows-dont-believe-it/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-...
rasz 3y ago
You watched the dark video released by Uber, others went to the same street and shot videos with normal dash cams at same time of night, difference in visibility is stark. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-victim-came-from-the-shadows-dont-believe-it/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-...

zvolsky 3y ago

It is possible that this tragic accident would have happened even if the operator paid full attention, but that is besides the merit of this case. Their job was to supervise an autonomous driving test, and they did not pay full attention at the critical moment, with no justifiable reason for this lack of attention: "Records indicate that streaming began at 9:16 pm and ended at 9:59 pm. Based on an examination of the video captured by the driver-facing camera, Vasquez was looking down toward her right knee 166 times for a total of 6 minutes, 47 seconds during the 21 minutes, 48 seconds preceding the crash. Just prior to the crash, Vasquez was looking at her lap for 5.3 seconds; she looked up half a second before the impact." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
> Their job was to supervise an autonomous driving test The "driver" performed her job flawlessly, by acting exactly as any other "driver" who's been rendered redundant by fully-automated systems. This "driver" exemplified the human indifference to the task when our attention isn't demanded by complete immersion in an interactive experience. By causing the vehicle to start operation, the driver accepted responsibility and liability, per the current laws on SDCs. Therefore, "scapegoat" is a misnomer that wrongly implies innocence or detachment from the sinful deed(s). The driver accepted her fate by signing up and settling into the left-hand front seat.
- flangola7 3y ago
  Per the current laws, but what about per objective ethics? I don't care what is written in the code book.
  - birdyrooster 3y ago
    The person shirking their duty knew the risks and was even profiting from their negligent behavior. Meanwhile a person lost their life who has nothing to gain from this. I blame the employer and the employee. Employers shouldn’t set their employees up to fail, and employees should know a risky proposition when they see it.
    - jcosentino11 3y ago
      This assumes employees have the privilege of walking away from a risky proposition.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        > Vasquez had previously spent more than four years in prison for two felony convictions — making false statements when obtaining unemployment benefits and attempted armed robbery — before starting work as an Uber driver, according to court records.
    - psd1 3y ago
      The stated promise of self-drive is reduction in accidents. The accident victim didn't sign up for this, but as a member of society she did stand to gain something; to wit, harm reduction. I do see the grim irony, but, nonetheless. Generally, it's the trolley problem. (Although in this specific case there's an element of human fault.)
      - taskforcegemini 3y ago
        and if there is no accident, due to intervention of the driver, will the situation even be noted somewhere? in similar threads on hn there are many near miss stories.
aperson_hello 3y ago
My point is that even if she had been paying full attention, the outcome wouldn't be different. If Uber hasn't wouldn't disabled AEB, it would have been different. Hence Uber is the most at fault (amongst the two of them - the pedestrian might really be the most at fault here)

gruez 3y ago

> the victim only appears for a few frames before the accident. 1. It only looks that way because the camera has terrible dynamic range. If you've ever driven in real life you'd know you can see further than 100ft in front of you. 2. if for whatever reason you can't see 100ft in front of you (eg. fog), you shouldn't be driving at such a speed where you can't stop in time if an object popped into existence 100ft in front of you. edit: >The forward-looking Uber dashcam did not pick up Herzberg until approximately 1.4 seconds before the collision, suggesting (as the sheriff did) that the crash may have been completely unavoidable even if Vasquez hadn't been distracted in the seconds leading up to the crash.[61] >However, night-time video shot by other motorists in the days following the crash, plus their comments, suggest that the area may have been better illuminated than the dashcam footage, viewed in isolation would suggest. This raises the possibility that Herzberg's appearing so late in the Uber video could merely be an indication that the camera had insufficient sensitivity or was otherwise poorly calibrated for the environment and setting in which it was operating. If these crowd-sourced re-creations are indeed representative of the visibility conditions on the actual night that the crash occurred, then Herzberg would have been visible to Vasquez as soon as there was a clear sight line had Vasquez only been looking ahead, refuting the assertion that the crash was unavoidable.[62] [62]: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-victim-came-from-the-shadows-dont-believe-it/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-...

rasz 3y ago

You watched the dark video released by Uber, others went to the same street and shot videos with normal dash cams at same time of night, difference in visibility is stark. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-victim-came-from-the-shadows-dont-believe-it/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-...