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Nobody is talking about morals here. Its bad for business for Apple to capitulate to the UK. It's bad for business for them to not capitulate to China. And iPh

Nobody is talking about morals here. Its bad for business for Apple to capitulate to the UK. It's bad for business for them to not capitulate to China. And iPhones ceasing to be sold in the UK would probably be all it takes for public backlash to neuter the law. I imagine that's not on the table in China.

Alupis 3y ago
> Its bad for business for Apple to capitulate to the UK. It's bad for business for them to not capitulate to China. It's very difficult to square these two sentences together. On one hand, if they break their privacy and security for the UK government, it's bad for business because they'll continue to sell iDevices and services? On the other hand, if they break their privacy and security for the CCP, it's good for business because they'll continue to sell iDevices and services? You're tacitly admitting my assertion - Apple's morals are for sale. If the US threatened Apple, we can expect they'll sell out there too, no?
- function_seven 3y ago
  > You're tacitly admitting my assertion - Apple's morals are for sale. Yes. China is much further from the Western world than the UK. Capitulation there isn’t a step onto the slippery slope. Doing the same thing in the UK would lead very quickly to EU and US demands to do the same. By exiting such a small market, Apple defends the much larger markets against creeping surveillance. Remember how fierce the backlash was to their CSAM scanning proposal? They walked that back. Some people might think it was for moral reasons, but I’m pretty sure they realized it would harm their bottom line. The way things work in China is not the same as the UK. They either play by CCP rules or they don’t play at all. Apple’s calculus here seems to be that not playing in the UK market is worth it, whereas missing out on the Chinese market is not worth it.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Nobody needs to operate in China. That's the thing that's being overlooked. Apple made a choice to operate there - and would have still been the world's most valued company regardless. So, Apple's choice was to sell-out their privacy and security credentials to make more money - counting on their other large markets (ie. the US) not paying close enough attention to see the blatant hypocrisy. "Security and privacy are great - unless we can make more money selling off your security and privacy to oppressive government regimes!" Somehow that just doesn't have a catchy marketing ring to it... So now there's precedent that Apple will violate everything they stand for if a large enough market demands it. What happens when the US government decides to place Apple in the crosshairs for not "helping catch terrorists" or something? Will Apple sell out too? Why not?
    - function_seven 3y ago
      I agree with all of this. Though I do believe Apple would put up a fight—if it comes down to it they’d follow the law and keep selling phones. We have examples of this from previous attempts to weaken encryption. The FBI’s San Bernardino case being the most memorable one for me.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        While a good example, that was in 2015. There haven't been very many (or any?) public challenges since - which does make one wonder... Apple could simultaneously backdoor their devices while also keep them secure from anyone but the government with a warrant. These things are not mutually exclusive. The China precedent is troubling - to say the least.
        condwanaland 3y ago
        You cannot backdoor a device in such a way that only 'certain' people can access it. Once that door is there, people will find an exploit it. The only way to be completely secure is never build the door in the first place.
    - sneak 3y ago
      You are wrong. Despite some recent movements to produce iPhones in other places, approximately 100% of all iPhones are made in China. Without China, there is no iPhone, and there is no Apple. Apple, presently, needs to operate in China. They have them by the balls. Compliance with CCP demands is non-optional. This may change in the future. Today it is 100% true.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        So you're claiming it's not possible to produce an iPhone in any other country besides China? That seems incredibly dubious. Who forced Apple to manufacturer iPhones in China? Nobody.
        3y ago
- JHorse 3y ago
  I think it's more that not capitulating to China would potentially result in destroying Apples supply chain. China could potentially kill Apple, the UK can kill a portion of Apples user base.
- gmerc 3y ago
  US stock listed Businesses have no morals, it’s amazing people somehow talk about them like people, not profit maximizing paperclip engines.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

Alupis 3y ago

> Its bad for business for Apple to capitulate to the UK. It's bad for business for them to not capitulate to China. It's very difficult to square these two sentences together. On one hand, if they break their privacy and security for the UK government, it's bad for business because they'll continue to sell iDevices and services? On the other hand, if they break their privacy and security for the CCP, it's good for business because they'll continue to sell iDevices and services? You're tacitly admitting my assertion - Apple's morals are for sale. If the US threatened Apple, we can expect they'll sell out there too, no?

function_seven 3y ago
> You're tacitly admitting my assertion - Apple's morals are for sale. Yes. China is much further from the Western world than the UK. Capitulation there isn’t a step onto the slippery slope. Doing the same thing in the UK would lead very quickly to EU and US demands to do the same. By exiting such a small market, Apple defends the much larger markets against creeping surveillance. Remember how fierce the backlash was to their CSAM scanning proposal? They walked that back. Some people might think it was for moral reasons, but I’m pretty sure they realized it would harm their bottom line. The way things work in China is not the same as the UK. They either play by CCP rules or they don’t play at all. Apple’s calculus here seems to be that not playing in the UK market is worth it, whereas missing out on the Chinese market is not worth it.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Nobody needs to operate in China. That's the thing that's being overlooked. Apple made a choice to operate there - and would have still been the world's most valued company regardless. So, Apple's choice was to sell-out their privacy and security credentials to make more money - counting on their other large markets (ie. the US) not paying close enough attention to see the blatant hypocrisy. "Security and privacy are great - unless we can make more money selling off your security and privacy to oppressive government regimes!" Somehow that just doesn't have a catchy marketing ring to it... So now there's precedent that Apple will violate everything they stand for if a large enough market demands it. What happens when the US government decides to place Apple in the crosshairs for not "helping catch terrorists" or something? Will Apple sell out too? Why not?
  - function_seven 3y ago
    I agree with all of this. Though I do believe Apple would put up a fight—if it comes down to it they’d follow the law and keep selling phones. We have examples of this from previous attempts to weaken encryption. The FBI’s San Bernardino case being the most memorable one for me.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      While a good example, that was in 2015. There haven't been very many (or any?) public challenges since - which does make one wonder... Apple could simultaneously backdoor their devices while also keep them secure from anyone but the government with a warrant. These things are not mutually exclusive. The China precedent is troubling - to say the least.
      - condwanaland 3y ago
        You cannot backdoor a device in such a way that only 'certain' people can access it. Once that door is there, people will find an exploit it. The only way to be completely secure is never build the door in the first place.
  - sneak 3y ago
    You are wrong. Despite some recent movements to produce iPhones in other places, approximately 100% of all iPhones are made in China. Without China, there is no iPhone, and there is no Apple. Apple, presently, needs to operate in China. They have them by the balls. Compliance with CCP demands is non-optional. This may change in the future. Today it is 100% true.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      So you're claiming it's not possible to produce an iPhone in any other country besides China? That seems incredibly dubious. Who forced Apple to manufacturer iPhones in China? Nobody.
      - 3y ago
JHorse 3y ago
I think it's more that not capitulating to China would potentially result in destroying Apples supply chain. China could potentially kill Apple, the UK can kill a portion of Apples user base.
gmerc 3y ago
US stock listed Businesses have no morals, it’s amazing people somehow talk about them like people, not profit maximizing paperclip engines.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]