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I was always under the impression that the glorification of Sparta started and ended at the battle of Thermopylae, the willingness to fight and die alongside yo

I was always under the impression that the glorification of Sparta started and ended at the battle of Thermopylae, the willingness to fight and die alongside your brothers in arms is venerated just as we Remember the Alamo. All in all, this FP just reeks of a leftist hit-piece, Sparta is so associated with right-wing toxic masculinity and so must be pilloried. After all, they’ve already torn down beautiful statues venerating heroes, now own to the intangible idols.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
As stated elsewhere I think. Right-Wing glorification of Sparta is really based mostly on the movie 300, and not on much 'historical fact'. Not that this bad. Most of our romanticized notions are incorrect. I also loved the movie 300 and if that is the romantic ideal for manly fighting, then so be it. That is fine. Call this some kind of 'Spartan Fighting Spirit'. Just don't take it as fact. Kind of like the Arthurian Ideal of Knighthood and Chivalry. It is a very powerful symbol, even if not very 'accurate'.
EA-3167 3y ago
I think a lot of it comes down to the usual ignorance of what the Spartans actually did and how they lived. A lot of focus is placed on their extreme lifestyles while a lot less is placed on their massive community of slaves (helots) and their secret police to manage them. It's funny, since the existence of a slave population which greatly outnumbered them shaped their society and led directly to their downfall. They've also always been a very useful shibboleth for people trying to make the "Effete Athenians vs Manly Spartans" comparison.
brazzy 3y ago
> All in all, this FP just reeks of a leftist hit-piece, Sparta is so associated with right-wing toxic masculinity and so must be pilloried. Can you point out any factual errors in it? >After all, they’ve already torn down beautiful statues venerating heroes, now own to the intangible idols. Which statues specifically are you talking about?
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I suspect they are talking about the statues glorifying the confederate slave owning society.
FormerBandmate 3y ago
Traitors who fought their country for slavery weren't heroes. The Founding Fathers were
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  When the American Revolution erupted, society in the Colonies was split pretty evenly between those who rebelled and those who wanted to remain under England. The American Founding Fathers are representative of a side that ultimately won by doing things like burning down many loyalists’ homes, or tar-and-feathering them, and then exiling them to Canada or the West Indies, in order to cow the other loyalists into keeping quiet. Sure, that is a bit less heinous than fighting to perpetuate race-based chattel slavery. But there is no reason to view the American Founding Fathers as heroes unless you are of that small portion of the world’s population that has been through American schools and still has an attachment to the mythology presented in civics classes there.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    There certainly is reason. Did you know that after Washington defeated the British, his officers offered him a military dictatorship? And he turned it down? Who does that? Who else in history did that? When he became President, he turned down titles like "your Excellency" and other trappings of power. He voluntarily left after two terms, establishing a precedent that lasted until FDR. How do you get more heroic than that? As for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, terrible fates awaited nearly all of them. https://michaelwsmith.com/the-sacrifices-made-by-the-declaration-signers/ https://michaelwsmith.com/the-sacrifices-made-by-the-declara...
    - norir 3y ago
      > How do you get more heroic than that? Do the same things without owning people.
      - WalterBright 3y ago

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

As stated elsewhere I think. Right-Wing glorification of Sparta is really based mostly on the movie 300, and not on much 'historical fact'. Not that this bad. Most of our romanticized notions are incorrect. I also loved the movie 300 and if that is the romantic ideal for manly fighting, then so be it. That is fine. Call this some kind of 'Spartan Fighting Spirit'. Just don't take it as fact. Kind of like the Arthurian Ideal of Knighthood and Chivalry. It is a very powerful symbol, even if not very 'accurate'.

EA-3167 3y ago

I think a lot of it comes down to the usual ignorance of what the Spartans actually did and how they lived. A lot of focus is placed on their extreme lifestyles while a lot less is placed on their massive community of slaves (helots) and their secret police to manage them. It's funny, since the existence of a slave population which greatly outnumbered them shaped their society and led directly to their downfall. They've also always been a very useful shibboleth for people trying to make the "Effete Athenians vs Manly Spartans" comparison.

brazzy 3y ago

> All in all, this FP just reeks of a leftist hit-piece, Sparta is so associated with right-wing toxic masculinity and so must be pilloried. Can you point out any factual errors in it? >After all, they’ve already torn down beautiful statues venerating heroes, now own to the intangible idols. Which statues specifically are you talking about?

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I suspect they are talking about the statues glorifying the confederate slave owning society.

FormerBandmate 3y ago

Traitors who fought their country for slavery weren't heroes. The Founding Fathers were

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
When the American Revolution erupted, society in the Colonies was split pretty evenly between those who rebelled and those who wanted to remain under England. The American Founding Fathers are representative of a side that ultimately won by doing things like burning down many loyalists’ homes, or tar-and-feathering them, and then exiling them to Canada or the West Indies, in order to cow the other loyalists into keeping quiet. Sure, that is a bit less heinous than fighting to perpetuate race-based chattel slavery. But there is no reason to view the American Founding Fathers as heroes unless you are of that small portion of the world’s population that has been through American schools and still has an attachment to the mythology presented in civics classes there.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  There certainly is reason. Did you know that after Washington defeated the British, his officers offered him a military dictatorship? And he turned it down? Who does that? Who else in history did that? When he became President, he turned down titles like "your Excellency" and other trappings of power. He voluntarily left after two terms, establishing a precedent that lasted until FDR. How do you get more heroic than that? As for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, terrible fates awaited nearly all of them. https://michaelwsmith.com/the-sacrifices-made-by-the-declaration-signers/ https://michaelwsmith.com/the-sacrifices-made-by-the-declara...
  - norir 3y ago
    > How do you get more heroic than that? Do the same things without owning people.
    - WalterBright 3y ago