9 ms·

Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

68 points by albertop 3y ago

Mat3777 3y ago
How poor will we get if you add the green transition to the Ukrainian war?
- pl-94 3y ago
  Hard to say as the green transition is poorly defined. However, lack of transition is much easier to define and to evaluate. According to a recent French government report [1], the cost of non action is significantly higher than transitioning to a net zero GHG economy by 2050. [1] - Rapport Pisani-Mahfouz https://www.strategie.gouv.fr/publications/incidences-economiques-de-laction-climat https://www.strategie.gouv.fr/publications/incidences-econom...
  - Mat3777 3y ago
    Kind of absurd to promote a hardly defined thing
Garvi 3y ago
The doubling of energy prices pretty much wiped out the heavy industry sector around here. I remember the German heavy industry Rhein area unions protesting this in Berlin without much media coverage a few months ago.
- picadores 3y ago
  Let them eat environmental fanatics
  - Garvi 3y ago
    The protesters were quite clear it wasn't about any misguided environmental policies, but political ones. We used to get a lot of cheap energy from Russia. Now that pipelines are getting blown up mysteriously, it's a different world. And before someone accuses me of not badmouthing "the enemy" enough, know that even Ukraine is still importing billions worth of Russian gas and petrol products and thus financing the war against itself. Funny how that works.
    - motbus3 3y ago
      War is the best seller of weapons. It promotes crisis and allow price inflation beyond reasonable. It also allow bizarre social movements to blame some enemy
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > And before someone accuses me of not badmouthing "the enemy" enough, know that even Ukraine is still importing billions worth of Russian gas and petrol products and thus financing the war against itself. Funny how that works. Ukraine doesn't want to cut of Europes supply of Russian gas until they are ready. Russian gas transits via Ukraine but it remains to seen how long that will last for.
- astrange 3y ago
  That's because Germany exports its image of being rational and methodical so hard they accidentally believed in it and forgot they're all naturalistic-mystic Green Party hippies and shut their nuclear plants down.
  - Garvi 3y ago
    I agree in principle. But the shutdown of nuclear reactors and subsequent switch to lignite coal burning power plants didn't affect the economy as much as it did the environment. Coal power is not more expensive, it's dirtier.
    - b3orn 3y ago
      > and subsequent switch to lignite coal burning power plants Didn't happen. It's still being used but it didn't replace nuclear, lignite use is down, it was roughly constant until 2018 and is in decline since 2019.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >lignite coal burning power plants didn't affect the economy as much as it did the environment. Coal power is not more expensive, it's dirtier. Yeah, but us humans live in that environment. I wonder hoe many years less life expectancy will be thanks to lignite burning and breathing in that coal dust.
  - boffinAudio 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Citation, please.
      - boffinAudio 3y ago
        Not so hard to find for oneself: https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/01/germany-rejects-u-s-sanctions-against-nord-stream-2-as-contrary-to-international-law/ https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/01/germany-rejects-u-s-sa...
- hef19898 3y ago
  Industry sectors are not being wiped out that fast so.
  - Garvi 3y ago
    What is that statement based on? In my country heavy industry has halved in the past 12 months. I know multiple engineers who are now getting into software development because of it.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      On an European level, that doesn't seem to be the case so: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:EU,_Industrial_production_for_total_industry_and_main_industrial_groupings,_2005-2022.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Industrial_production_(volume)_index_overview https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... Except the global dip during Covid, development is either stable or slightly increasing. A 50% drop in production sounds like a strong claim, requiring equally strong sources to back up.
LatteLazy 3y ago
https://archive.ph/nzdtv https://archive.ph/nzdtv
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
comfypotato 3y ago
The graph uses 2008, 2019, and 2022 as indices. This could just as easily be a graph exploring the effects of the pandemic. I doubt Germany’s last tick would be in that direction were it not for the pandemic, for example.
undefinedland 3y ago
[flagged]
- veave 3y ago
  While I agree with you that America is using Europe in this way, let's not pretend this isn't a self-inflicted wound. For America it doesn't matter if it's a dem or rep president - they do whatever they have to do to stay afloat, to grow, even if it's at the expense of the rest of the world. Here in Europe our unelected and unaccountable politicians take progressivism as a religion knowing that it harms our economy and our freedom. These politicians betray us as much as possible and we can do little to stop them.
  - undefinedland 3y ago
    No I don't; European leaders have either been negligent, corrupt or coerced and I don't blame Americans for sinking their teeth into Europe. But my parents come from Poland and I live in Australia (which has also been effectively been made into a vassal state) and I despair at being put under American rule. I thought Europe had sufficient strength given its population, economy and history to push back and at least remain independent, but it appears not.
    - astrange 3y ago
      Nobody in America knows or thinks anything about Australia. (The reverse is half true - Australians seem to think a lot about the US, but they don't know much about it, leading to their strange conviction they're the only country in the world with good coffee.) They're pretty rich so they should be happy with themselves, but they have the same problems any low population resource economy country has. Failing to diversify their economy is self inflicted though; they have some remarkably good CS research in universities there, but no businesses to speak of coming from it, and for some reason can't be bothered to build working internet.
      - hef19898 3y ago
code-blooded 3y ago
I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't make you any less happy. You just need enough to live comfortably, which especially in tech is not that hard, and then you can focus on whatever gives your life meaning.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, It is more like no house and no car. Prices of cars increased with 50 % .
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Prices of cars increased with 50 % So has real estate.
- seren 3y ago
  As a European, I can still believe this is true (maybe this is some kind of coping mechanism), but at the same time, I got the impression, that overall healthcare, education, safety nets are getting worse as time goes by, so I don't know how long it will stay an advantage. At some point, you need to have the mean to finance these services, so stagnating GDP is not that good.
  - remarkEon 3y ago
    I've spent about a month in Europe for the last three years on vacation and travel there for work semi-frequently. I've considered moving (wife says no, for now). I agree with you on the finance part. I'd need to accrue some significant coin to make this move make sense financially (plus finish becoming fluent). What I'd tell you is this "cope" isn't really cope. Americans just don't have many options for cities that have clean and reliable public transit, beautiful architecture, and safe streets. There's exceptions, obviously. But ... those exceptions are not, say, Vienna. Edit: I suppose it isn't just the transit and the architecture and the safety that's the draw. Many in America, even if they're "conservative" (whatever that means today), are willing to pay more in taxes if it means free health care and a functioning bureaucracy.
seren 3y ago
In an environment with rising energy prices it is hard to compete with a net oil exporter. However, it means that Europe should invest more in nuclear and renewables to stay relevant. But the war in Ukraine is not helping I guess. But the 2008 vs 2023 comparison is really sobering.
gumballindie 3y ago
Hm dubious article. Fails to mention that while west europeans are indeed getting poorer east europeans are getting richer. Confused folks might say that east europe is becoming richer thanks to eu funding and i will remind them that that comes at the heavy price of having sold entire industries to said benefactors - whom often underpay despite colossal profits, essentially making development more … challenging. Nonetheless decades of hard work seems to pay off for the “cheap labour”. I would suggest that europeans try and work together in some sort of union of cooperation and mutual respect. If there was such a union then certainly the whole continent might fare better. Just a thought.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Yeah, and most of the article, which is allmover the place, focuses on the period right after Covid (bad for Europe as an export heavy region) and the war in Ukraine (it changes things if a war happens right next door). Inflation is a serious problem everywhere, and yes the tendency of rich European countries to favor austerity didn't change. Greece is fucked since 2008, in order to save investment banks, nothimg new here. In short, the article uses some nice ancdotes, throws in special cases, puts some statistics and numbers (without additional explanation of how those numbers are calculated) on top of all of that only to justify the narrative behind the headline. So, all the mortal sins (in my view) of numbers heavy journalism in one place. Not that everything is rosey over here, but Europe is far from poor. And for some reason, we didn't have a recession yet neither. The article is well in line so with a lot of others pushing the narrative of neo-liberalism being the only saviour of a Europe on the brink of collaps (only a slight exageration).
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > having sold entire industries to said benefactors - whom often underpay despite colossal profits And pay no taxes.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
throwawaycol 3y ago
Does it have anything to do with lack of colonies?
UhUhUhUh 3y ago
Well, some Europeans are getting richer. Move along.
lucasRW 3y ago
Western European are funding the eastern countries (tens of billions per year), plus, are accommodating hundreds of thousands of migrants per year. You'd have to be a full to think that at some point this does not translate into a serious dent into your economic health.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Western European are funding the eastern countries No they aren't. Western European countries are getting access to the eastern european consumer market to sell their products, and to the cheep Eastern European resources, products and labor to prop up their shortages for industry, labor and social services at the expanse of their own, through the EU common market. It's why Eastern Europe now pays the same or more for food and energy than Germany when it used to be significantly cheaper. There's no free lunch here. You're making it sound like westerners are directly putting their money in our pockets. I checked my pockets and I don't have any western money in them. Your comment sound like your average fake Brexit propaganda.
  - lucasRW 3y ago
    It is true that the West can use the East's cheaper resources: but the benefits made there go into the pockets of those who own those businesses. However, the funding of the East is spread across the complete taxpayer via EU contributions, which is in effect, a tax.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      No, it goes into the pockets of all consumers. Westerners enjoy the cheapest energy and supermarket prices on food pricelessly because the unified common market work in their flavor (of those with capital) while the consumers in the eastern block have to put up with competing with western consumer prices at eastern wages, because they can buy energy, raw materials, resources and labor from the eastern block. They also can afford elderly care and nursing because they can pay Eastern European workers less to suplement their ageing demographics and the shortages in their social care system, along with other lower prestige jobs that the locals don't want to do but are still necessary for a functional society (cleaners, delivery drivers, plumbers, builders, landscapers, etc). You're making it sound like the money going to eastern block EU is hand outs. It's not. You're just misinformed or delusional. The money going to the eastern block for their development means more eastern consumers buying more western goods and services, which means more tax money and jobs in western countries. It means more labor competitive manufacturing so stuff can be made competitively in the union instead of manufacturing being offshored to China. If you don't see these benefits, why don't you vote to leave the EU, maybe you'll see them then? Because it seems like you only want to have your cake and eat it too.
t8sr 3y ago
Most new GDP growth since the 90s has and will continue to come from capturing new industries, like large scale web tech, genetic technology, space flight and modern investment finance. For all of these industries, you need a critical mass of specialists and capital, and so they can only be captured by very large companies. (Although SMBs can survive in some parts of the value chain, which is where Switzerland seems to live.) Americans (and the PRC) are very good at creating large new companies. Europe not so much - we have the money and universities, but also a lot of German Angst and a complicated internal market, not to mention heavy regulation. Being around startups, I’m also pretty surprised how unsophisticated many EU investors are - good ideas get severely underfunded, while everyone piles into random ML and crypto scams, only to loose all their money. Over time, this adds up to missing growth compared to the Americans. And we're so used to being rich that we can't conceive of what the continent will look like once the money is gone, so long-term economic outlook doesn't get much attention from the electorate.
- polotics 3y ago
  You seem to be under the impression that companies are things that exist inside of countries. I put it to you that, except for mafia led places where the rule of law doesn't exist (cough, Russia... but not only) companies are quite separate entities.
  - t8sr 3y ago
    This isn't Cyberpunk 2077. The US reaps huge benefits from having companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft subject to their laws and regulatory oversight, and owned by their capital. This is why lobbying is such a profitable business.
- pas 3y ago
  Countries doesn't have to be on the cutting-bleeding edge of innovation, what they need is to have sane tax laws to keep some of the economic surplus at home. That said, yes, the startup scene in the EU is ridiculous, both investors and startups are subpar. There's too much nepotism and cronyism, entrenched interests, and other barriers to adoption for most products and services, and there's absolutely not enough capital for doing proper R&D, marketing and building a sustainable revenue stream.
rob74 3y ago
Many of the examples given in the article are complete rubbish: > The French are eating less foie gras and drinking less red wine. foie gras involves torturing animals, and drinking less alcohol is healthier, so good for them! > Across Germany, meat and milk consumption has fallen to the lowest level in three decades yes, more people are eating less meat - good for them and for the environment! > TooGoodToGo, a company founded in Denmark in 2015 that sells leftover food from retailers and restaurants, has 76 million registered users across Europe using food at or past its sell-by date instead of throwing it away? Now we can't have that, can we? At this point, I was waiting for a line about how so many of these poor, poor Europeans are now forced to use bicycles or public transportation, which must surely be because they can't afford a car or the gas prices. But luckily it didn't come (except for the poor woman who has to "share a car with her partner’s father").
- lucasRW 3y ago
  So according to your "analysis", not going on holydays anymore, or to the restaurant, or having smaller houses, is not the sign of being less wealthy... "because it is good for the planet". Green-leftism summarized righ here !! :D
  - rob74 3y ago
    No, I just wanted to suggest that some of the things mentioned in the article may also have other reasons than simply not being able to afford them. I am not in any way in dire straits financially, but I also look at the "reduced price" (due to sell-by date or for other reasons) shelf in the supermarket - not because I can't afford anything else, but in order to have more money for other stuff. And I also try to go more by foot, bicycle or public transportation than using the car - partly because of increased fuel prices, but partly also because it's healthier, better for the environment and I generally arrive at the destination less stressed out than if I take the car. Reality is more complex than the simplistic spin articles like this one try to put on it! As for "having smaller houses", that's not as much because people are earning less, but because housing prices have exploded recently - that's a real problem that the article completely fails to mention, because it doesn't fit into its narrative (it also happens in the US).
WA 3y ago
Don't believe any article that uses AVERAGES instead of the MEAN when it comes to wages, because average wages are worthless to consider and are more easily skewed by extreme outliers. Since Jeff Bezos moved to our village, we're all multi-millionaires on average.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Since Jeff Bezos moved to our village, we're all multi-millionaires on average. Funny anecdote, but realistically how many ultra-wealthy like Bezos live in neighborhoods poor enough to significantly, distorrt the localc market? I think you'll find the ultra wealthy generally live in similar locations, seme as the poor, same as the middle class, and that goes in every country, from the US to France.
  - defrost 3y ago
    FWiW there's at least one person on the planet with a personal wealth > $10 billion that still lives on their multi generational station surrounded by native title lands populated by first nations people with no income or assets (other than an embedded 'nation' their family has held for at least 10K years.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      There's many more Europeans who still live and own land worth billions inherited across generations, from centuries ago, than there are Americans in the same position. In Austria, the top 100 richest families own 2/3 of the country's wealth, and spoiler alert, non of those are recently minted tech billionaires, but wealthy heirs from land and 100 year old businesses.
      - defrost 3y ago
        In Australia (like Austria but with more letters and less culture) they have Vogon poets: https://genius.com/Gina-rinehart-our-future-annotated https://genius.com/Gina-rinehart-our-future-annotated https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/02/15/3431797.htm https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/02/15/3431797.htm estimated net worth > $27 billion.
BillyTheKing 3y ago
There's a significant issue in that innovation isn't always at the forefront in Europe. The primary focus seems to be maintaining the status quo, particularly safeguarding pensions. Tbh this lack of innovative thinking is quickly becoming a pretty severe problem. I was visiting a med island recently with both Americans and Europeans, it was evident how wide the income gap was becoming. The American members of our group, working in comparable positions and industries, had significantly more spare cash than their European counter parts. I honestly hope that Europe addresses this lack of innovation and economic decline instead of just propping failing industries. Although it's important to recognize that the issue is not just bureaucratic. It's more deeply rooted in mindset and creativity — which is arguably much harder to overcome.. Unfortunately, creating an environment that encourages innovation, startups, and tech adoption isn't particularly straight-forward (especially if you're behind). It requires a cultural shift, coupled with decent policies and investment in top-level education
- pas 3y ago
  There's a lot of innovative thinking, for example making healthier cities by getting rid of ugly roads and replacing them with bike lanes and public transit alternatives. What's missing is investment to increase productivity of costly public services. Sure there are billions of funds spent every year on "economic activity encouragement", but as you mention it just ends up propping up failing businesses. Basically the healthy nice cities are still in a big ugly messy transitory phase. Trains as still fucking expensive and slow, so people fly and drive a lot. (Integrated ride sharing and overnight train service would be nice, etc.) And of course there's the issue of housing.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The primary focus seems to be maintaining the status quo, particularly safeguarding pensions. Pretty much yeah, but is it a surprise that people vote to keep their cushy standards of living from the past? Sure, none of those voters cares that the economic landscape has changed since the boomer times when Europeans companies ruled thew world and brought in the most profits and tax revenue, which allowed easy funding of the generous welfare system we enjoy, except that now we're not producing the same amount of money to still afford this lifestyle, so something will have to give, since the current trajectory seems to be ever increasing taxes on labor to fund welfare, while economic prosperity and competitiveness declines.
nunez 3y ago
> NAME REDACTED, a 31-year-old anesthesiologist living in Manchester, England, earns about £51,000 ($67,000) per year for a 48-hour workweek. Inflation, which has been about 10% or higher in the U.K. for nearly a year, is devouring his monthly budget, he says. That's insane. AFAIK, Anesthesiologists in the US make $400k/year MINIMUM. (I redacted their name to prevent them from backlinking to this site.)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  And people on HN say that the wage disparity between EU and US is overblown.
- pas 3y ago
  Brexit is working as intended, yeey! More NHS funding ... oh what, wait, what... oh dear, the xenophobe conservative clowns were lying? Oh no! Never would have crossed my mind!
  - nvm0n1 3y ago
    Given one of the primary justifications for not leaving the EU was to retain access to unlimited cheap labor for the NHS, it isn't easy to blame low medical worker wages on Brexit. If you want medical staff to make more money, removing their primary source of competition is a quick way to do that. In practice of course Brexit has done no such thing as the immigration rules in the UK are still optimized for mass immigration, as the Conservatives are so much not xenophobic that they prefer to enrage their own voter base than restrict immigration by even small amounts. As for healthcare spending, the massive jump in NHS spending during the pandemic more than consumed the former EU contributions. The EU funds did indeed go to the NHS and then a lot more on top. If the UK was still paying in, then inflation would be even worse.
- tim333 3y ago
  Brief googling gives Average base salary £100,082 the guy in 51k probably just started in the job.
  - 3y ago
tim333 3y ago
>They are becoming poorer Seems dubious and based of a drop of 3% or so in real incomes between 2019 and 2022 caused by covid and the Ukraine war raising energy prices. Those are mostly over now - covid and the energy prices - and Europe will recover.

68 points by albertop 3y ago

Mat3777 3y ago

How poor will we get if you add the green transition to the Ukrainian war?

pl-94 3y ago
Hard to say as the green transition is poorly defined. However, lack of transition is much easier to define and to evaluate. According to a recent French government report [1], the cost of non action is significantly higher than transitioning to a net zero GHG economy by 2050. [1] - Rapport Pisani-Mahfouz https://www.strategie.gouv.fr/publications/incidences-economiques-de-laction-climat https://www.strategie.gouv.fr/publications/incidences-econom...
- Mat3777 3y ago
  Kind of absurd to promote a hardly defined thing

Garvi 3y ago

The doubling of energy prices pretty much wiped out the heavy industry sector around here. I remember the German heavy industry Rhein area unions protesting this in Berlin without much media coverage a few months ago.

picadores 3y ago
Let them eat environmental fanatics
- Garvi 3y ago
  The protesters were quite clear it wasn't about any misguided environmental policies, but political ones. We used to get a lot of cheap energy from Russia. Now that pipelines are getting blown up mysteriously, it's a different world. And before someone accuses me of not badmouthing "the enemy" enough, know that even Ukraine is still importing billions worth of Russian gas and petrol products and thus financing the war against itself. Funny how that works.
  - motbus3 3y ago
    War is the best seller of weapons. It promotes crisis and allow price inflation beyond reasonable. It also allow bizarre social movements to blame some enemy
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > And before someone accuses me of not badmouthing "the enemy" enough, know that even Ukraine is still importing billions worth of Russian gas and petrol products and thus financing the war against itself. Funny how that works. Ukraine doesn't want to cut of Europes supply of Russian gas until they are ready. Russian gas transits via Ukraine but it remains to seen how long that will last for.
astrange 3y ago
That's because Germany exports its image of being rational and methodical so hard they accidentally believed in it and forgot they're all naturalistic-mystic Green Party hippies and shut their nuclear plants down.
- Garvi 3y ago
  I agree in principle. But the shutdown of nuclear reactors and subsequent switch to lignite coal burning power plants didn't affect the economy as much as it did the environment. Coal power is not more expensive, it's dirtier.
  - b3orn 3y ago
    > and subsequent switch to lignite coal burning power plants Didn't happen. It's still being used but it didn't replace nuclear, lignite use is down, it was roughly constant until 2018 and is in decline since 2019.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >lignite coal burning power plants didn't affect the economy as much as it did the environment. Coal power is not more expensive, it's dirtier. Yeah, but us humans live in that environment. I wonder hoe many years less life expectancy will be thanks to lignite burning and breathing in that coal dust.
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Citation, please.
    - boffinAudio 3y ago
      Not so hard to find for oneself: https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/01/germany-rejects-u-s-sanctions-against-nord-stream-2-as-contrary-to-international-law/ https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/01/germany-rejects-u-s-sa...
hef19898 3y ago
Industry sectors are not being wiped out that fast so.
- Garvi 3y ago
  What is that statement based on? In my country heavy industry has halved in the past 12 months. I know multiple engineers who are now getting into software development because of it.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    On an European level, that doesn't seem to be the case so: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:EU,_Industrial_production_for_total_industry_and_main_industrial_groupings,_2005-2022.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Industrial_production_(volume)_index_overview https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... Except the global dip during Covid, development is either stable or slightly increasing. A 50% drop in production sounds like a strong claim, requiring equally strong sources to back up.

LatteLazy 3y ago

https://archive.ph/nzdtv https://archive.ph/nzdtv

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

comfypotato 3y ago

The graph uses 2008, 2019, and 2022 as indices. This could just as easily be a graph exploring the effects of the pandemic. I doubt Germany’s last tick would be in that direction were it not for the pandemic, for example.

undefinedland 3y ago

[flagged]

veave 3y ago
While I agree with you that America is using Europe in this way, let's not pretend this isn't a self-inflicted wound. For America it doesn't matter if it's a dem or rep president - they do whatever they have to do to stay afloat, to grow, even if it's at the expense of the rest of the world. Here in Europe our unelected and unaccountable politicians take progressivism as a religion knowing that it harms our economy and our freedom. These politicians betray us as much as possible and we can do little to stop them.
- undefinedland 3y ago
  No I don't; European leaders have either been negligent, corrupt or coerced and I don't blame Americans for sinking their teeth into Europe. But my parents come from Poland and I live in Australia (which has also been effectively been made into a vassal state) and I despair at being put under American rule. I thought Europe had sufficient strength given its population, economy and history to push back and at least remain independent, but it appears not.
  - astrange 3y ago
    Nobody in America knows or thinks anything about Australia. (The reverse is half true - Australians seem to think a lot about the US, but they don't know much about it, leading to their strange conviction they're the only country in the world with good coffee.) They're pretty rich so they should be happy with themselves, but they have the same problems any low population resource economy country has. Failing to diversify their economy is self inflicted though; they have some remarkably good CS research in universities there, but no businesses to speak of coming from it, and for some reason can't be bothered to build working internet.
    - hef19898 3y ago

code-blooded 3y ago

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't make you any less happy. You just need enough to live comfortably, which especially in tech is not that hard, and then you can focus on whatever gives your life meaning.

hulitu 3y ago
> Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, It is more like no house and no car. Prices of cars increased with 50 % .
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Prices of cars increased with 50 % So has real estate.
seren 3y ago
As a European, I can still believe this is true (maybe this is some kind of coping mechanism), but at the same time, I got the impression, that overall healthcare, education, safety nets are getting worse as time goes by, so I don't know how long it will stay an advantage. At some point, you need to have the mean to finance these services, so stagnating GDP is not that good.
- remarkEon 3y ago
  I've spent about a month in Europe for the last three years on vacation and travel there for work semi-frequently. I've considered moving (wife says no, for now). I agree with you on the finance part. I'd need to accrue some significant coin to make this move make sense financially (plus finish becoming fluent). What I'd tell you is this "cope" isn't really cope. Americans just don't have many options for cities that have clean and reliable public transit, beautiful architecture, and safe streets. There's exceptions, obviously. But ... those exceptions are not, say, Vienna. Edit: I suppose it isn't just the transit and the architecture and the safety that's the draw. Many in America, even if they're "conservative" (whatever that means today), are willing to pay more in taxes if it means free health care and a functioning bureaucracy.

seren 3y ago

In an environment with rising energy prices it is hard to compete with a net oil exporter. However, it means that Europe should invest more in nuclear and renewables to stay relevant. But the war in Ukraine is not helping I guess. But the 2008 vs 2023 comparison is really sobering.

gumballindie 3y ago

Hm dubious article. Fails to mention that while west europeans are indeed getting poorer east europeans are getting richer. Confused folks might say that east europe is becoming richer thanks to eu funding and i will remind them that that comes at the heavy price of having sold entire industries to said benefactors - whom often underpay despite colossal profits, essentially making development more … challenging. Nonetheless decades of hard work seems to pay off for the “cheap labour”. I would suggest that europeans try and work together in some sort of union of cooperation and mutual respect. If there was such a union then certainly the whole continent might fare better. Just a thought.

hef19898 3y ago
Yeah, and most of the article, which is allmover the place, focuses on the period right after Covid (bad for Europe as an export heavy region) and the war in Ukraine (it changes things if a war happens right next door). Inflation is a serious problem everywhere, and yes the tendency of rich European countries to favor austerity didn't change. Greece is fucked since 2008, in order to save investment banks, nothimg new here. In short, the article uses some nice ancdotes, throws in special cases, puts some statistics and numbers (without additional explanation of how those numbers are calculated) on top of all of that only to justify the narrative behind the headline. So, all the mortal sins (in my view) of numbers heavy journalism in one place. Not that everything is rosey over here, but Europe is far from poor. And for some reason, we didn't have a recession yet neither. The article is well in line so with a lot of others pushing the narrative of neo-liberalism being the only saviour of a Europe on the brink of collaps (only a slight exageration).
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> having sold entire industries to said benefactors - whom often underpay despite colossal profits And pay no taxes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

throwawaycol 3y ago

Does it have anything to do with lack of colonies?

UhUhUhUh 3y ago

Well, some Europeans are getting richer. Move along.

lucasRW 3y ago

Western European are funding the eastern countries (tens of billions per year), plus, are accommodating hundreds of thousands of migrants per year. You'd have to be a full to think that at some point this does not translate into a serious dent into your economic health.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Western European are funding the eastern countries No they aren't. Western European countries are getting access to the eastern european consumer market to sell their products, and to the cheep Eastern European resources, products and labor to prop up their shortages for industry, labor and social services at the expanse of their own, through the EU common market. It's why Eastern Europe now pays the same or more for food and energy than Germany when it used to be significantly cheaper. There's no free lunch here. You're making it sound like westerners are directly putting their money in our pockets. I checked my pockets and I don't have any western money in them. Your comment sound like your average fake Brexit propaganda.
- lucasRW 3y ago
  It is true that the West can use the East's cheaper resources: but the benefits made there go into the pockets of those who own those businesses. However, the funding of the East is spread across the complete taxpayer via EU contributions, which is in effect, a tax.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    No, it goes into the pockets of all consumers. Westerners enjoy the cheapest energy and supermarket prices on food pricelessly because the unified common market work in their flavor (of those with capital) while the consumers in the eastern block have to put up with competing with western consumer prices at eastern wages, because they can buy energy, raw materials, resources and labor from the eastern block. They also can afford elderly care and nursing because they can pay Eastern European workers less to suplement their ageing demographics and the shortages in their social care system, along with other lower prestige jobs that the locals don't want to do but are still necessary for a functional society (cleaners, delivery drivers, plumbers, builders, landscapers, etc). You're making it sound like the money going to eastern block EU is hand outs. It's not. You're just misinformed or delusional. The money going to the eastern block for their development means more eastern consumers buying more western goods and services, which means more tax money and jobs in western countries. It means more labor competitive manufacturing so stuff can be made competitively in the union instead of manufacturing being offshored to China. If you don't see these benefits, why don't you vote to leave the EU, maybe you'll see them then? Because it seems like you only want to have your cake and eat it too.

t8sr 3y ago

Most new GDP growth since the 90s has and will continue to come from capturing new industries, like large scale web tech, genetic technology, space flight and modern investment finance. For all of these industries, you need a critical mass of specialists and capital, and so they can only be captured by very large companies. (Although SMBs can survive in some parts of the value chain, which is where Switzerland seems to live.) Americans (and the PRC) are very good at creating large new companies. Europe not so much - we have the money and universities, but also a lot of German Angst and a complicated internal market, not to mention heavy regulation. Being around startups, I’m also pretty surprised how unsophisticated many EU investors are - good ideas get severely underfunded, while everyone piles into random ML and crypto scams, only to loose all their money. Over time, this adds up to missing growth compared to the Americans. And we're so used to being rich that we can't conceive of what the continent will look like once the money is gone, so long-term economic outlook doesn't get much attention from the electorate.

polotics 3y ago
You seem to be under the impression that companies are things that exist inside of countries. I put it to you that, except for mafia led places where the rule of law doesn't exist (cough, Russia... but not only) companies are quite separate entities.
- t8sr 3y ago
  This isn't Cyberpunk 2077. The US reaps huge benefits from having companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft subject to their laws and regulatory oversight, and owned by their capital. This is why lobbying is such a profitable business.
pas 3y ago
Countries doesn't have to be on the cutting-bleeding edge of innovation, what they need is to have sane tax laws to keep some of the economic surplus at home. That said, yes, the startup scene in the EU is ridiculous, both investors and startups are subpar. There's too much nepotism and cronyism, entrenched interests, and other barriers to adoption for most products and services, and there's absolutely not enough capital for doing proper R&D, marketing and building a sustainable revenue stream.

rob74 3y ago

Many of the examples given in the article are complete rubbish: > The French are eating less foie gras and drinking less red wine. foie gras involves torturing animals, and drinking less alcohol is healthier, so good for them! > Across Germany, meat and milk consumption has fallen to the lowest level in three decades yes, more people are eating less meat - good for them and for the environment! > TooGoodToGo, a company founded in Denmark in 2015 that sells leftover food from retailers and restaurants, has 76 million registered users across Europe using food at or past its sell-by date instead of throwing it away? Now we can't have that, can we? At this point, I was waiting for a line about how so many of these poor, poor Europeans are now forced to use bicycles or public transportation, which must surely be because they can't afford a car or the gas prices. But luckily it didn't come (except for the poor woman who has to "share a car with her partner’s father").

lucasRW 3y ago
So according to your "analysis", not going on holydays anymore, or to the restaurant, or having smaller houses, is not the sign of being less wealthy... "because it is good for the planet". Green-leftism summarized righ here !! :D
- rob74 3y ago
  No, I just wanted to suggest that some of the things mentioned in the article may also have other reasons than simply not being able to afford them. I am not in any way in dire straits financially, but I also look at the "reduced price" (due to sell-by date or for other reasons) shelf in the supermarket - not because I can't afford anything else, but in order to have more money for other stuff. And I also try to go more by foot, bicycle or public transportation than using the car - partly because of increased fuel prices, but partly also because it's healthier, better for the environment and I generally arrive at the destination less stressed out than if I take the car. Reality is more complex than the simplistic spin articles like this one try to put on it! As for "having smaller houses", that's not as much because people are earning less, but because housing prices have exploded recently - that's a real problem that the article completely fails to mention, because it doesn't fit into its narrative (it also happens in the US).

WA 3y ago

Don't believe any article that uses AVERAGES instead of the MEAN when it comes to wages, because average wages are worthless to consider and are more easily skewed by extreme outliers. Since Jeff Bezos moved to our village, we're all multi-millionaires on average.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Since Jeff Bezos moved to our village, we're all multi-millionaires on average. Funny anecdote, but realistically how many ultra-wealthy like Bezos live in neighborhoods poor enough to significantly, distorrt the localc market? I think you'll find the ultra wealthy generally live in similar locations, seme as the poor, same as the middle class, and that goes in every country, from the US to France.
- defrost 3y ago
  FWiW there's at least one person on the planet with a personal wealth > $10 billion that still lives on their multi generational station surrounded by native title lands populated by first nations people with no income or assets (other than an embedded 'nation' their family has held for at least 10K years.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    There's many more Europeans who still live and own land worth billions inherited across generations, from centuries ago, than there are Americans in the same position. In Austria, the top 100 richest families own 2/3 of the country's wealth, and spoiler alert, non of those are recently minted tech billionaires, but wealthy heirs from land and 100 year old businesses.
    - defrost 3y ago
      In Australia (like Austria but with more letters and less culture) they have Vogon poets: https://genius.com/Gina-rinehart-our-future-annotated https://genius.com/Gina-rinehart-our-future-annotated https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/02/15/3431797.htm https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/02/15/3431797.htm estimated net worth > $27 billion.

BillyTheKing 3y ago

There's a significant issue in that innovation isn't always at the forefront in Europe. The primary focus seems to be maintaining the status quo, particularly safeguarding pensions. Tbh this lack of innovative thinking is quickly becoming a pretty severe problem. I was visiting a med island recently with both Americans and Europeans, it was evident how wide the income gap was becoming. The American members of our group, working in comparable positions and industries, had significantly more spare cash than their European counter parts. I honestly hope that Europe addresses this lack of innovation and economic decline instead of just propping failing industries. Although it's important to recognize that the issue is not just bureaucratic. It's more deeply rooted in mindset and creativity — which is arguably much harder to overcome.. Unfortunately, creating an environment that encourages innovation, startups, and tech adoption isn't particularly straight-forward (especially if you're behind). It requires a cultural shift, coupled with decent policies and investment in top-level education

pas 3y ago
There's a lot of innovative thinking, for example making healthier cities by getting rid of ugly roads and replacing them with bike lanes and public transit alternatives. What's missing is investment to increase productivity of costly public services. Sure there are billions of funds spent every year on "economic activity encouragement", but as you mention it just ends up propping up failing businesses. Basically the healthy nice cities are still in a big ugly messy transitory phase. Trains as still fucking expensive and slow, so people fly and drive a lot. (Integrated ride sharing and overnight train service would be nice, etc.) And of course there's the issue of housing.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>The primary focus seems to be maintaining the status quo, particularly safeguarding pensions. Pretty much yeah, but is it a surprise that people vote to keep their cushy standards of living from the past? Sure, none of those voters cares that the economic landscape has changed since the boomer times when Europeans companies ruled thew world and brought in the most profits and tax revenue, which allowed easy funding of the generous welfare system we enjoy, except that now we're not producing the same amount of money to still afford this lifestyle, so something will have to give, since the current trajectory seems to be ever increasing taxes on labor to fund welfare, while economic prosperity and competitiveness declines.

nunez 3y ago

> NAME REDACTED, a 31-year-old anesthesiologist living in Manchester, England, earns about £51,000 ($67,000) per year for a 48-hour workweek. Inflation, which has been about 10% or higher in the U.K. for nearly a year, is devouring his monthly budget, he says. That's insane. AFAIK, Anesthesiologists in the US make $400k/year MINIMUM. (I redacted their name to prevent them from backlinking to this site.)

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
And people on HN say that the wage disparity between EU and US is overblown.
pas 3y ago
Brexit is working as intended, yeey! More NHS funding ... oh what, wait, what... oh dear, the xenophobe conservative clowns were lying? Oh no! Never would have crossed my mind!
- nvm0n1 3y ago
  Given one of the primary justifications for not leaving the EU was to retain access to unlimited cheap labor for the NHS, it isn't easy to blame low medical worker wages on Brexit. If you want medical staff to make more money, removing their primary source of competition is a quick way to do that. In practice of course Brexit has done no such thing as the immigration rules in the UK are still optimized for mass immigration, as the Conservatives are so much not xenophobic that they prefer to enrage their own voter base than restrict immigration by even small amounts. As for healthcare spending, the massive jump in NHS spending during the pandemic more than consumed the former EU contributions. The EU funds did indeed go to the NHS and then a lot more on top. If the UK was still paying in, then inflation would be even worse.
tim333 3y ago
Brief googling gives Average base salary £100,082 the guy in 51k probably just started in the job.
- 3y ago

tim333 3y ago

>They are becoming poorer Seems dubious and based of a drop of 3% or so in real incomes between 2019 and 2022 caused by covid and the Ukraine war raising energy prices. Those are mostly over now - covid and the energy prices - and Europe will recover.