7 ms·

Mozilla ending support for Windows 7

slome 3y ago
This allows Mozilla to trim away some of the cruft and have more time available to focus on actually improving Firefox for people living in this day and age. There will always be someone who feels left behind but to me this decision is a no-brainer.
- eviks 3y ago
  There will also be a lot of people actually left behind, but of course there will always be people who don't care about it
  - FreshStart 3y ago
    Goto prepare it for modern users
whoopdedo 3y ago
Windows 7 is 12.9% of Firefox installs and the second most used OS. https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware
- ororroro 3y ago
  3rd most installs. Windows 11 identifies as windows 10 for reasons.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    That's because the kernel identifies as NT10.0. Internally it's the same as Windows 10. Similarly, Windows 2000 and XP identify as NT5.0 and 5.1 respectively, and Windows Vista/7/8/8.1 identify as NT6.0, 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 respectively. Incidentally, this is also why drivers often are cross-compatible along certain Windows versions.
    - XCSme 3y ago
      What does NT stand for?
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        There are a number of theories and backstories[1], but most commonly it's understood that it once stood for New Technology. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Naming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Naming
- nikanj 3y ago
  Neither Edge nor Chrome support Windows 7, so it's not surprising a lot of Firefox users are on Windows 7 - because the other options are no longer available on Windows 7
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    Steam also dropped windows 7 recently.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      Dropping* Formal drop is set to occur on New Year's 2024.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    Edge came after Win 10.
- lurtbancaster 3y ago
  Mozilla presumably collects this operating system version data on new installs of Firefox upon first run. I wonder how the analytics of Firefox forks are tracked. If they can even be tracked. Tor Browser, LibreWolf et al privacy friendly forks, block Mozilla's data collection on startup and they spoof the user agent to Windows NT 10.0 regardless of if you run them on Windown 7, 8, 10 or 11.
- flangola7 3y ago
  This is terrifying. Windows 7 was EoL in early 2020. If you're in a time where you've heard about COVID-19 you shouldn't be using 7.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    Why not ? Win 10 is a terrible OS.
    - flangola7 3y ago
      Because you haven't received security updates in three years and are one bad HTTP GET from becoming a botnet node or ransomware victim. I loathe W10 but I loathe being hacked more.
      - pajko 3y ago
        https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB5027275 https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB502...
      - hulitu 3y ago
        > one bad HTTP GET from becoming a botnet node or ransomware victim Just like in Windows 10 and 11.
mrmincent 3y ago
That’s a shame, better give Mitchel Baker a pay rise.
mattl 3y ago
Why should these projects support things after the companies that make them do? Mozilla doesn’t support old Linux or macOS either.
- 2h 3y ago
  why should Mozilla let Microsoft or anyone else dictate what they support? I agree that Windows 7 should be dropped, but only because its quite old, not because Microsoft has dropped support for it. Frankly Windows 7 is better than Windows 11, I think many would agree with that.
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    Aside from potential security issues newer versions of windows always provide new APIs and changes to old ones. Keeping support requires keeping track of that and testing, which costs resources.
    - nicce 3y ago
      There is actually dilemma about potential security issues; since the development has been stopped, no new features are introduced and hence no new bugs. Windows 7 is quite battle-tested. Can the system be so stable that there aren't security issues anymore? On the other hand, one is too much if it is not fixed. > windows always provide new APIs and changes to old ones I don't think that is visible or significant. Windows changes APIs but always provides backwards compatibility. It is the major reason why it is dominating in many industry areas. You can run Windows 2000 apps in Windows 11.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    > Frankly Windows 7 is better than Windows 11, I think many would agree with that. I would not. Windows 10 has improvements to the compositor, scheduler, settings and seemingly other things that make it faster in many applications, even on low resource systems. It has other features (like HDR, DirectML) that make it far better for some more cutting edge apps. One could argue the "stock" config of Windows 10 and 11 is really trashy... Which is true. But its not really a fair argument, as OEMs loaded Windows 7 systems with bloatware (where Microsoft is doing more of that these days).
pcdoodle 3y ago
Windows 7, what a cozy time to be a developer. The runway is long and your code will run forever...
userbinator 3y ago
Unsupported operating systems receive no security updates and can be dangerous for you to use. I see that the paranoia-FUD pushed by the forced-obsolescence corporate-authoritarianism crowd has infected them too. Looking at how many new vulnerabilities are being found in newer and increasingly complex (often for zero benefit), while at the same time also more user-hostile software, should make you see what they're really trying to do. Software that has been around for a long time has gotten far more bugs beaten out of it than the new stuff, and due to the way the industry is going, it will only get worse. Fortunately there's a huge and growing community which has forked Firefox and continued making functionally-equivalent versions for older OSs. As the old saying goes: "There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns." Look at the truth yourself if you don't (or don't want to) believe: https://www.cvedetails.com/product/112/Microsoft-Windows-95.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/112/Microsoft-Windows-95.... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/343/Microsoft-Windows-98.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/343/Microsoft-Windows-98.... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/462/Microsoft-Windows-98se.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/462/Microsoft-Windows-98s... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/107/Microsoft-Windows-2000.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/107/Microsoft-Windows-200... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/739/Microsoft-Windows-Xp.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/739/Microsoft-Windows-Xp.... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/9591/Microsoft-Windows-Vista.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/9591/Microsoft-Windows-Vi... You can find the stats for (all the different versions of) Windows 10 and 11, and combine the yourself.
- tredre3 3y ago
  I agree that the "BUT WHAT ABOUT UPDATES?!" hysteria is weird [1]. But realistically Windows 7 has a very small user base remaining, and an even smaller part of that uses Firefox. So what do you want Mozilla to do? Keep wasting resources on CI, testing, coding shims for missing OS features, and making releases for the benefit of the 12 people worldwide who depend on the W7+Firefox combination? 1. https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2202720-coomer https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2202720-coomer
  - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
jeroenhd 3y ago
For those just reading the headline: Windows 7 users will be able to run Firefox until at least September 2024 through the the Extended Support Release all existing Firefox users on Windows 7/8 will be migrated to. Newer web technologies won't be supported, but the browser will keep receiving security updates for another year.
csdreamer7 3y ago
The Firefox data is interesting. It has been years since I daily drove a machine with 8 gigs of RAM which is 33% of their current users. Been even longer since it was a 32 bit machine, which is 15% of their current users. Win7 is the second most OS, followed by MacOS other as third. Linux is one of many at the bottom in the chart despite it being the default in (almost?) every distro. Makes me wonder what kind of profile is the common Firefox user. A corporate shop where the IT head insists on Firefox? The browser you install for your parents and tell them to only use this icon? I have seen FF and Chrome on the free computers at my local library.
- BoorishBears 3y ago
  I think you forgot about the rest of the world where consumerism isn't quite as enabled as you're imagining
- antigonemerlin 3y ago
  Personally on Firefox since I got into an open source. In my relatively short experience developing an open source browser extension, Firefox users are far more active than Chrome users, which makes sense given that for most users, Chrome is a default, while Firefox is a choice. They're much harder to please, but the analogy that comes to mind is that in terms of submitting tickets and issues, they're like the linux of browsers. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845205
Grom_PE 3y ago
That's a shame. Windows 7 is the last good Windows. I'm not convinced that later versions of Windows have some incredibly useful APIs that cannot be called dynamically and need to be used unconditionally. This chase after new APIs also makes the program harder to support in ReactOS and Wine.
- ocdtrekkie 3y ago
  Running a 14 year old operating system in the world we live in today is dangerous and stupid. If you don't like newer Windows, that's fine, don't use Windows. But operating systems that old should be relegated to airgapped machines for historical purposes.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    > Running a 14 year old operating system in the world we live in today is dangerous and stupid. Forcing an upgrade treadmill on your users just to shake them down for a few extra advertising dollars in the world we live in today is dangerous and stupid. > If you don't like newer Windows, that's fine, don't use Windows. I don't believe that Windows 11 was at all necessary to achieve this security nirvana.
    - ocdtrekkie 3y ago
      Well, Windows 10 is necessary currently. At the moment 11 doesn't offer any real improvements above it yet from a security standpoint. But obviously Windows 10 only officially has about two years of life left, though I expect Microsoft to extend it.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    >dangerous and stupid. My practical threat model (and presumably most peoples') does not involve any of the threats that updates and patches guard against.
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      drive-by system takeover isn't on your threat list?
dbg31415 3y ago
If this means they'll have more resources to fix the horrible video streaming battery usage from Firefox running on MacOS... great. Intel MBPs battery just goes from 100 to 0 when you stream a video call. Honestly even on an M1 Firefox uses a lot more battery than Chrome or Safari. Makes it hard to recommend Firefox to people. Now... as for people still running an OS from 2009... I don't have any comments on that, other than to say it's really hard to care about what people running a 14 year-old OS want. Imagine all the hardware is pretty much just running on luck at that point. Remember how shitty it was to have to support IE6? And that was only really for like 10 years.
Gigachad 3y ago
It’s FOSS. I’d this affects you, you can always fork it and maintain support yourself.

This allows Mozilla to trim away some of the cruft and have more time available to focus on actually improving Firefox for people living in this day and age. There will always be someone who feels left behind but to me this decision is a no-brainer.

eviks 3y ago
There will also be a lot of people actually left behind, but of course there will always be people who don't care about it
- FreshStart 3y ago
  Goto prepare it for modern users

whoopdedo 3y ago

Windows 7 is 12.9% of Firefox installs and the second most used OS. https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/hardware

ororroro 3y ago
3rd most installs. Windows 11 identifies as windows 10 for reasons.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  That's because the kernel identifies as NT10.0. Internally it's the same as Windows 10. Similarly, Windows 2000 and XP identify as NT5.0 and 5.1 respectively, and Windows Vista/7/8/8.1 identify as NT6.0, 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 respectively. Incidentally, this is also why drivers often are cross-compatible along certain Windows versions.
  - XCSme 3y ago
    What does NT stand for?
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      There are a number of theories and backstories[1], but most commonly it's understood that it once stood for New Technology. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Naming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Naming
nikanj 3y ago
Neither Edge nor Chrome support Windows 7, so it's not surprising a lot of Firefox users are on Windows 7 - because the other options are no longer available on Windows 7
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Steam also dropped windows 7 recently.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Dropping* Formal drop is set to occur on New Year's 2024.
- hulitu 3y ago
  Edge came after Win 10.
lurtbancaster 3y ago
Mozilla presumably collects this operating system version data on new installs of Firefox upon first run. I wonder how the analytics of Firefox forks are tracked. If they can even be tracked. Tor Browser, LibreWolf et al privacy friendly forks, block Mozilla's data collection on startup and they spoof the user agent to Windows NT 10.0 regardless of if you run them on Windown 7, 8, 10 or 11.
flangola7 3y ago
This is terrifying. Windows 7 was EoL in early 2020. If you're in a time where you've heard about COVID-19 you shouldn't be using 7.
- hulitu 3y ago
  Why not ? Win 10 is a terrible OS.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Because you haven't received security updates in three years and are one bad HTTP GET from becoming a botnet node or ransomware victim. I loathe W10 but I loathe being hacked more.
    - pajko 3y ago
      https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB5027275 https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB502...
    - hulitu 3y ago
      > one bad HTTP GET from becoming a botnet node or ransomware victim Just like in Windows 10 and 11.

mrmincent 3y ago

That’s a shame, better give Mitchel Baker a pay rise.

mattl 3y ago

Why should these projects support things after the companies that make them do? Mozilla doesn’t support old Linux or macOS either.

2h 3y ago
why should Mozilla let Microsoft or anyone else dictate what they support? I agree that Windows 7 should be dropped, but only because its quite old, not because Microsoft has dropped support for it. Frankly Windows 7 is better than Windows 11, I think many would agree with that.
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  Aside from potential security issues newer versions of windows always provide new APIs and changes to old ones. Keeping support requires keeping track of that and testing, which costs resources.
  - nicce 3y ago
    There is actually dilemma about potential security issues; since the development has been stopped, no new features are introduced and hence no new bugs. Windows 7 is quite battle-tested. Can the system be so stable that there aren't security issues anymore? On the other hand, one is too much if it is not fixed. > windows always provide new APIs and changes to old ones I don't think that is visible or significant. Windows changes APIs but always provides backwards compatibility. It is the major reason why it is dominating in many industry areas. You can run Windows 2000 apps in Windows 11.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  > Frankly Windows 7 is better than Windows 11, I think many would agree with that. I would not. Windows 10 has improvements to the compositor, scheduler, settings and seemingly other things that make it faster in many applications, even on low resource systems. It has other features (like HDR, DirectML) that make it far better for some more cutting edge apps. One could argue the "stock" config of Windows 10 and 11 is really trashy... Which is true. But its not really a fair argument, as OEMs loaded Windows 7 systems with bloatware (where Microsoft is doing more of that these days).

pcdoodle 3y ago

Windows 7, what a cozy time to be a developer. The runway is long and your code will run forever...

userbinator 3y ago

Unsupported operating systems receive no security updates and can be dangerous for you to use. I see that the paranoia-FUD pushed by the forced-obsolescence corporate-authoritarianism crowd has infected them too. Looking at how many new vulnerabilities are being found in newer and increasingly complex (often for zero benefit), while at the same time also more user-hostile software, should make you see what they're really trying to do. Software that has been around for a long time has gotten far more bugs beaten out of it than the new stuff, and due to the way the industry is going, it will only get worse. Fortunately there's a huge and growing community which has forked Firefox and continued making functionally-equivalent versions for older OSs. As the old saying goes: "There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns." Look at the truth yourself if you don't (or don't want to) believe: https://www.cvedetails.com/product/112/Microsoft-Windows-95.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/112/Microsoft-Windows-95.... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/343/Microsoft-Windows-98.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/343/Microsoft-Windows-98.... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/462/Microsoft-Windows-98se.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/462/Microsoft-Windows-98s... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/107/Microsoft-Windows-2000.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/107/Microsoft-Windows-200... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/739/Microsoft-Windows-Xp.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/739/Microsoft-Windows-Xp.... https://www.cvedetails.com/product/9591/Microsoft-Windows-Vista.html?vendor_id=26 https://www.cvedetails.com/product/9591/Microsoft-Windows-Vi... You can find the stats for (all the different versions of) Windows 10 and 11, and combine the yourself.

tredre3 3y ago
I agree that the "BUT WHAT ABOUT UPDATES?!" hysteria is weird [1]. But realistically Windows 7 has a very small user base remaining, and an even smaller part of that uses Firefox. So what do you want Mozilla to do? Keep wasting resources on CI, testing, coding shims for missing OS features, and making releases for the benefit of the 12 people worldwide who depend on the W7+Firefox combination? 1. https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2202720-coomer https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2202720-coomer
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago

jeroenhd 3y ago

For those just reading the headline: Windows 7 users will be able to run Firefox until at least September 2024 through the the Extended Support Release all existing Firefox users on Windows 7/8 will be migrated to. Newer web technologies won't be supported, but the browser will keep receiving security updates for another year.

csdreamer7 3y ago

The Firefox data is interesting. It has been years since I daily drove a machine with 8 gigs of RAM which is 33% of their current users. Been even longer since it was a 32 bit machine, which is 15% of their current users. Win7 is the second most OS, followed by MacOS other as third. Linux is one of many at the bottom in the chart despite it being the default in (almost?) every distro. Makes me wonder what kind of profile is the common Firefox user. A corporate shop where the IT head insists on Firefox? The browser you install for your parents and tell them to only use this icon? I have seen FF and Chrome on the free computers at my local library.

BoorishBears 3y ago
I think you forgot about the rest of the world where consumerism isn't quite as enabled as you're imagining
antigonemerlin 3y ago
Personally on Firefox since I got into an open source. In my relatively short experience developing an open source browser extension, Firefox users are far more active than Chrome users, which makes sense given that for most users, Chrome is a default, while Firefox is a choice. They're much harder to please, but the analogy that comes to mind is that in terms of submitting tickets and issues, they're like the linux of browsers. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845205

Grom_PE 3y ago

That's a shame. Windows 7 is the last good Windows. I'm not convinced that later versions of Windows have some incredibly useful APIs that cannot be called dynamically and need to be used unconditionally. This chase after new APIs also makes the program harder to support in ReactOS and Wine.

ocdtrekkie 3y ago
Running a 14 year old operating system in the world we live in today is dangerous and stupid. If you don't like newer Windows, that's fine, don't use Windows. But operating systems that old should be relegated to airgapped machines for historical purposes.
- akira2501 3y ago
  > Running a 14 year old operating system in the world we live in today is dangerous and stupid. Forcing an upgrade treadmill on your users just to shake them down for a few extra advertising dollars in the world we live in today is dangerous and stupid. > If you don't like newer Windows, that's fine, don't use Windows. I don't believe that Windows 11 was at all necessary to achieve this security nirvana.
  - ocdtrekkie 3y ago
    Well, Windows 10 is necessary currently. At the moment 11 doesn't offer any real improvements above it yet from a security standpoint. But obviously Windows 10 only officially has about two years of life left, though I expect Microsoft to extend it.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >dangerous and stupid. My practical threat model (and presumably most peoples') does not involve any of the threats that updates and patches guard against.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    drive-by system takeover isn't on your threat list?

dbg31415 3y ago

If this means they'll have more resources to fix the horrible video streaming battery usage from Firefox running on MacOS... great. Intel MBPs battery just goes from 100 to 0 when you stream a video call. Honestly even on an M1 Firefox uses a lot more battery than Chrome or Safari. Makes it hard to recommend Firefox to people. Now... as for people still running an OS from 2009... I don't have any comments on that, other than to say it's really hard to care about what people running a 14 year-old OS want. Imagine all the hardware is pretty much just running on luck at that point. Remember how shitty it was to have to support IE6? And that was only really for like 10 years.

Gigachad 3y ago

It’s FOSS. I’d this affects you, you can always fork it and maintain support yourself.