6 ms·

I worked in construction for ten years and then worked at a construction management software startup for a year, where maybe I could see the writing on the wall

by ftlio 3y ago

I worked in construction for ten years and then worked at a construction management software startup for a year, where maybe I could see the writing on the wall better than others. The problem is that nobody can align the incentives of the tradespeople and the office folks when it comes to integrating into an information system together. You have to cross multiple organizational boundaries between owner, builder, contractor, and subcontractor of which very few people have a bottom up understanding. Mostly the people with the incentive to put everyone on a single platform (owner / builder) think very low of the tradespeople, which is why tradespeople are beginning to make more money than the accountants and PMs.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
Which is exactly why I always advocate for importing temporary labor from mexico. Letting the local tradespeople gain too much power is half the reason why building is so difficult in america.
- thatguy0900 3y ago
  God forbid anyone other than computer engineers get to feel like they're not just wage slaves.
  - sclarisse 3y ago
    Mexicans in construction can feel like wage slaves every day in Mexico. Those temporarily in the US get to feel like they’re making bank, absolutely just cleaning up. Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k. Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To “protect” the Mexican from making cash? And remember that when construction is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have saved enough for your house, that’s fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people (not in tech) to afford homes. And on the national scale we have a massive backlog in housing and can expect it will take decades before housing gets better. US labor is neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer himself who benefits.
    - mint2 3y ago
      I’m sure non-us programmers will welcome the relaxed visa requirements and companies will gladly pay them 1/2 the current market rates. Or are only construction jobs being opened up like that?
      - sclarisse 3y ago
        I sure hope so. I’m earning 10x what some of my European programmer friends are. For it to continue like this is unjustifiable.
    - boomchinolo78 3y ago
      Mexican construction workers, make usually the minimum wage. About 10 USD per day
    - ericmay 3y ago
      > Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? A better question to ask is why is the value of the Mexican’s labor so much higher once they step foot into the United States for the same exact work and exact same skill level. Another question you can ask is why can’t I as an American move to Norway and partake in their healthcare system and sovereign wealth fund? Or why can’t I move to Switzerland and work as a barista? Once you can answer the second question, you have your answer to the first.
      - ChainOfFools 3y ago
        It's not even close to the same amount of work, the construction worker in Mexico has to be far, far more resourceful than his American counterpart because things that we take for granted in the states like having on-site power, a constant supply of water, porta johns, working power tools, safety equipment and padding, nearby air conditioned restaurants and other public spaces to cool off in after the job or on lunch breaks, transportation to and from the site are largely absent in most Mexican construction circumstances. Things like sawbucks and and jigs for bending and shaping rebar are almost always just improvised on site. The concept of the US style planned development (fraccionamiento, very loosely the MX counterpart) where basic service infrastructure is laid down first, and construction happens afterward, is very much the exception there, and most work is done ad hoc using whatever tooling happens to be available in the nearest small town. Also Mexican construction is almost entirely cement and cinder block standards due to relatively little native timber, and those things are all hauled around the site manually with occasional wheelbarrow assistance. None of this tilt up, balloon frame stick built business we have here. Bottom line being that the typical Mexican construction laborer is going to be much more well-rounded, flexible, and industrious then the typical American construction worker, and as such is worth far more to an American crew, where these traits stand out, than to a Mexican crew where they are the norm.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Can't tell if sarcasm or not... Yeah, it's those local tradespeople living in their mansions and driving Lambos that is the real problem with building costs, so of course we should import desperate people in unstable situations to compete against them.
  - quantified 3y ago
    It's been working so well for meatpacking and agriculture...
    - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
      It works perfectly, government subsidies and cheap foreign labor creates happy american farmers. Housing and infrastructure are critical to the country, just like food. The only issue is the legal limbo of selective immigration, it would be less cruel to issue visas quicker for temporary workers with most resident benefits waived than the current under-the-table dealings with illegal and undocumented migrants.
      - quantified 3y ago
        Given that enforcing the law drives the labor away, and the conditions for the workers suck, the only way it's working is to find that making things suck for people is somehow good.
- boomchinolo78 3y ago
  There are three components that get paid in business. Labor, capital and rent. Rent is low in construction as it is not tied to a particular location; you store the machines and tools anywhere. Increasing the supply of labor will just ensure that the providers of capital get to keep more of the profit.
- thebradbain 3y ago
  Which is exactly why I always advocate for outsourcing engineering talent overseas. Letting the Silicon Valley software engineers gain too much power is half the reason why keeping a product from being cancelled is so difficult at Google. See, throwing a lot of nonsequiters together does not make a convincing argument that you know anything about what you’re talking about!
- rurp 3y ago
  Oh yes, won't somebody please look out for the poor put upon business owners. They just can't catch a break in modern America.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Most of the houses built from the late 80s through the 2000s housing bubble were built by foreign labor. Ditto for most of the kitchen labor in big cities. Anthony Bourdain wrote about it extensively in the book that made him famous. Both are the reason the middle class was able to eke it out for so long. Now the hacks aren't working and the money printer kept going brrrrrrrrrrrr and the average person can't afford jack.
- ftlio 3y ago
  The unions aren’t that bad, but if there was any kind of accountability on budgets, they would be crushed or, more likely, just be better and faster. Between ZIRP and infinite debt, I can’t blame them for getting their cut. Also yes, I assume most of American buildings in the next 20-30 years will be built by foreign contractors using foreign labor.
ksec 3y ago
>The problem is that nobody can align the incentives of the tradespeople and the office folks when it comes to integrating into an information system together. Exactly this. What you describe is basically the same as every ERP and CRM problem. In the end most of them all somewhat converged to SAP or SAP equivalent. It takes a very specific and special sets of skills to align and understand both, if not all parties interest.

by ftlio 3y ago

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

Which is exactly why I always advocate for importing temporary labor from mexico. Letting the local tradespeople gain too much power is half the reason why building is so difficult in america.

thatguy0900 3y ago
God forbid anyone other than computer engineers get to feel like they're not just wage slaves.
- sclarisse 3y ago
  Mexicans in construction can feel like wage slaves every day in Mexico. Those temporarily in the US get to feel like they’re making bank, absolutely just cleaning up. Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k. Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To “protect” the Mexican from making cash? And remember that when construction is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have saved enough for your house, that’s fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people (not in tech) to afford homes. And on the national scale we have a massive backlog in housing and can expect it will take decades before housing gets better. US labor is neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer himself who benefits.
  - mint2 3y ago
    I’m sure non-us programmers will welcome the relaxed visa requirements and companies will gladly pay them 1/2 the current market rates. Or are only construction jobs being opened up like that?
    - sclarisse 3y ago
      I sure hope so. I’m earning 10x what some of my European programmer friends are. For it to continue like this is unjustifiable.
  - boomchinolo78 3y ago
    Mexican construction workers, make usually the minimum wage. About 10 USD per day
  - ericmay 3y ago
    > Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? A better question to ask is why is the value of the Mexican’s labor so much higher once they step foot into the United States for the same exact work and exact same skill level. Another question you can ask is why can’t I as an American move to Norway and partake in their healthcare system and sovereign wealth fund? Or why can’t I move to Switzerland and work as a barista? Once you can answer the second question, you have your answer to the first.
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      It's not even close to the same amount of work, the construction worker in Mexico has to be far, far more resourceful than his American counterpart because things that we take for granted in the states like having on-site power, a constant supply of water, porta johns, working power tools, safety equipment and padding, nearby air conditioned restaurants and other public spaces to cool off in after the job or on lunch breaks, transportation to and from the site are largely absent in most Mexican construction circumstances. Things like sawbucks and and jigs for bending and shaping rebar are almost always just improvised on site. The concept of the US style planned development (fraccionamiento, very loosely the MX counterpart) where basic service infrastructure is laid down first, and construction happens afterward, is very much the exception there, and most work is done ad hoc using whatever tooling happens to be available in the nearest small town. Also Mexican construction is almost entirely cement and cinder block standards due to relatively little native timber, and those things are all hauled around the site manually with occasional wheelbarrow assistance. None of this tilt up, balloon frame stick built business we have here. Bottom line being that the typical Mexican construction laborer is going to be much more well-rounded, flexible, and industrious then the typical American construction worker, and as such is worth far more to an American crew, where these traits stand out, than to a Mexican crew where they are the norm.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Can't tell if sarcasm or not... Yeah, it's those local tradespeople living in their mansions and driving Lambos that is the real problem with building costs, so of course we should import desperate people in unstable situations to compete against them.
- quantified 3y ago
  It's been working so well for meatpacking and agriculture...
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    It works perfectly, government subsidies and cheap foreign labor creates happy american farmers. Housing and infrastructure are critical to the country, just like food. The only issue is the legal limbo of selective immigration, it would be less cruel to issue visas quicker for temporary workers with most resident benefits waived than the current under-the-table dealings with illegal and undocumented migrants.
    - quantified 3y ago
      Given that enforcing the law drives the labor away, and the conditions for the workers suck, the only way it's working is to find that making things suck for people is somehow good.
boomchinolo78 3y ago
There are three components that get paid in business. Labor, capital and rent. Rent is low in construction as it is not tied to a particular location; you store the machines and tools anywhere. Increasing the supply of labor will just ensure that the providers of capital get to keep more of the profit.
thebradbain 3y ago
Which is exactly why I always advocate for outsourcing engineering talent overseas. Letting the Silicon Valley software engineers gain too much power is half the reason why keeping a product from being cancelled is so difficult at Google. See, throwing a lot of nonsequiters together does not make a convincing argument that you know anything about what you’re talking about!
rurp 3y ago
Oh yes, won't somebody please look out for the poor put upon business owners. They just can't catch a break in modern America.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
Most of the houses built from the late 80s through the 2000s housing bubble were built by foreign labor. Ditto for most of the kitchen labor in big cities. Anthony Bourdain wrote about it extensively in the book that made him famous. Both are the reason the middle class was able to eke it out for so long. Now the hacks aren't working and the money printer kept going brrrrrrrrrrrr and the average person can't afford jack.
ftlio 3y ago
The unions aren’t that bad, but if there was any kind of accountability on budgets, they would be crushed or, more likely, just be better and faster. Between ZIRP and infinite debt, I can’t blame them for getting their cut. Also yes, I assume most of American buildings in the next 20-30 years will be built by foreign contractors using foreign labor.

ksec 3y ago

>The problem is that nobody can align the incentives of the tradespeople and the office folks when it comes to integrating into an information system together. Exactly this. What you describe is basically the same as every ERP and CRM problem. In the end most of them all somewhat converged to SAP or SAP equivalent. It takes a very specific and special sets of skills to align and understand both, if not all parties interest.