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It's strange to me how people keep comparing cryptocurrencies to equity, but don't compare them to their closest counterpart - fiat currencies. Are fiat curren

It's strange to me how people keep comparing cryptocurrencies to equity, but don't compare them to their closest counterpart - fiat currencies. Are fiat currencies treated like securities? No. Are there "best execution requirements" when I exchange my USD for EUR. No. Did somebody have to register the Brazilian Real with the SEC for it to be exchangeable in the US? No.

vladd 3y ago
People cannot create fiat currencies out of thin air. When done it's a crime (currency forgery).
- Marsymars 3y ago
  That doesn't sound right. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Have you ever been to a Canadian Tires? CTM is used the same way you'd use Airline Miles or Credit Card Points.
    - Marsymars 3y ago
      Yes, I’m familiar with how it’s used. And its usage seems pretty clearly at odds with “People cannot create fiat currencies out of thin air without it being a crime”. (I could have used any number of other examples - WoW gold, Disney Dollars, etc.)
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  It's a crime if you or I do it. It's a blessing of quantitative easing when the rulers - our lords and saviors - do it.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    The essential point is that they are not ruler or lords or saviors. We hired them to work for us, and democracies turn out to work better than any other form of government in history (and it's not close). We are the rulers, lords, and the only hope for our own salvation. You'd better get to work.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      I didn't hire or vote for any central banker, and neither did you. We were born into the fiat system, the rules already written and specifically made to exploit us. And I completely agree with your second paragraph.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        I did vote for my president, who hired the central bankers, and senators, who confirmed them. They also built the entire structure of the current fiat system over time.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Yea, turns out the rule of law works rather well, and when it doesn't work well nothing is going to stop the henchmen from beating you to death with a hammer anyway. What makes a government a government is their monopoly on violence, what makes a good government good is only having to minimally exercise their monopoly.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      Yes, it works well for transferring enormous amounts of wealth into a few hands. As seen ever since the introduction of fiat money, for thousands of years of history.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        Heh, I'm sure you're going to call the libertarian police department next [0]https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...
- mrkeen 3y ago
  That's precisely what fiat currencies are. Currencies which can be created out of thin air. That's what 'fiat' means - "Let there be". Fiat currencies are 'fiat' in stark comparison to wealth which can't be created out of thin air, e.g. gold or cryptographically-protected numbers.
alephnerd 3y ago
Fiat currencies are backed by the issuing government, who in turn follows globally agreed upon regulations. This is why a cryptoCURRENCY is treated as a security.
- 0x457 3y ago
  That's not exactly true, though. Only coins that are backed by something are treated as securities: ICOs, stablecoins and similar. ETH for example is not a security by any definition used in the US. This is why bitcoin specifically not included in those lawsuits.
adventured 3y ago
You invented and answered your own false premise. You set it up by proclaiming fiat the closest counterpart, and then proclaimed that fiat isn't treated like a security. You're the one saying it's closest to fiat, not the regulators. The regulators consider it to be more like an asset class and not fiat money like USD. They have been very clear about that. > Did somebody have to register the Brazilian Real with the SEC for it to be exchangeable in the US? No. There is in fact a considerable regulatory system in place as it pertains to exchanging currency, currency laws, and so on.
- zhvihti 3y ago
  My premise is that I don't agree with the regulator :) Of course a regulator is there to regulate so their incentive is to find things to regulate. > The regulators consider it to be more like an asset class Being an asset is also applicable in my opinion. But assets and securities are not the same, and this is what's changing - regulators switching the categorization from assets (which was implicitly and somewhat explicitly the state until now) to securities.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    So your premise is the thing you're arguing for? That's a circular argument.

vladd 3y ago

People cannot create fiat currencies out of thin air. When done it's a crime (currency forgery).

Marsymars 3y ago
That doesn't sound right. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Have you ever been to a Canadian Tires? CTM is used the same way you'd use Airline Miles or Credit Card Points.
  - Marsymars 3y ago
    Yes, I’m familiar with how it’s used. And its usage seems pretty clearly at odds with “People cannot create fiat currencies out of thin air without it being a crime”. (I could have used any number of other examples - WoW gold, Disney Dollars, etc.)
carlosjobim 3y ago
It's a crime if you or I do it. It's a blessing of quantitative easing when the rulers - our lords and saviors - do it.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  The essential point is that they are not ruler or lords or saviors. We hired them to work for us, and democracies turn out to work better than any other form of government in history (and it's not close). We are the rulers, lords, and the only hope for our own salvation. You'd better get to work.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    I didn't hire or vote for any central banker, and neither did you. We were born into the fiat system, the rules already written and specifically made to exploit us. And I completely agree with your second paragraph.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      I did vote for my president, who hired the central bankers, and senators, who confirmed them. They also built the entire structure of the current fiat system over time.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Yea, turns out the rule of law works rather well, and when it doesn't work well nothing is going to stop the henchmen from beating you to death with a hammer anyway. What makes a government a government is their monopoly on violence, what makes a good government good is only having to minimally exercise their monopoly.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    Yes, it works well for transferring enormous amounts of wealth into a few hands. As seen ever since the introduction of fiat money, for thousands of years of history.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      Heh, I'm sure you're going to call the libertarian police department next [0]https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...
mrkeen 3y ago
That's precisely what fiat currencies are. Currencies which can be created out of thin air. That's what 'fiat' means - "Let there be". Fiat currencies are 'fiat' in stark comparison to wealth which can't be created out of thin air, e.g. gold or cryptographically-protected numbers.

alephnerd 3y ago

Fiat currencies are backed by the issuing government, who in turn follows globally agreed upon regulations. This is why a cryptoCURRENCY is treated as a security.

0x457 3y ago
That's not exactly true, though. Only coins that are backed by something are treated as securities: ICOs, stablecoins and similar. ETH for example is not a security by any definition used in the US. This is why bitcoin specifically not included in those lawsuits.

adventured 3y ago

You invented and answered your own false premise. You set it up by proclaiming fiat the closest counterpart, and then proclaimed that fiat isn't treated like a security. You're the one saying it's closest to fiat, not the regulators. The regulators consider it to be more like an asset class and not fiat money like USD. They have been very clear about that. > Did somebody have to register the Brazilian Real with the SEC for it to be exchangeable in the US? No. There is in fact a considerable regulatory system in place as it pertains to exchanging currency, currency laws, and so on.

zhvihti 3y ago
My premise is that I don't agree with the regulator :) Of course a regulator is there to regulate so their incentive is to find things to regulate. > The regulators consider it to be more like an asset class Being an asset is also applicable in my opinion. But assets and securities are not the same, and this is what's changing - regulators switching the categorization from assets (which was implicitly and somewhat explicitly the state until now) to securities.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  So your premise is the thing you're arguing for? That's a circular argument.