6 ms·

> That because in the US businesses have functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach That worked great in the case of PRISM et al

jonfw 3y ago
An important difference is that the US government doesn't have a "god credential", they have to request the data (and there is a process to request the data involving courts, etc.) Meanwhile, govt officials in China appear to have unrestricted access
- CrackerNews 3y ago
  An opaque process of secret courts with secret decisions may be different legally, but in spirit it does not seem that significantly different to me in terms of preventing overreach and abuse.
  - black_puppydog 3y ago
    Especially if you happen to not be a US citizen, in which case there are no actual safeguards anyhow. IMHO this mirrors nicely the situation of a US citizen being concerned that the Chines govt won't protect their rights. This is how most of the world sees the US "checks" and "balances".
    - inglor_cz 3y ago
      Even though I loathe spying, I must admit that the US (or any country for that matter) does not really have any natural or legal obligations to respect privacy of foreigners abroad. It is their own business to protect it themselves.
      - black_puppydog 3y ago
        Yeah, but then don't expect people to show much compassion when the same thing happens the other way around and the US immediately cries wolf.
        inglor_cz 3y ago
        Not an American, and I don't. Big countries throwing tantrums is somewhat ludicrous anyway.
  - salawat 3y ago
    The "secret" part there undoes pretty much your entire contention. That which doesn't see the light of day may as well not even exist.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    How many families are disappeared annually for the wrong political statements in the US?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- sfjailbird 3y ago
  > the US government doesn't have a "god credential" Why are you so quick to believe they don't, and that China does? > process to request the data involving courts Secret courts that rubberstamp agency requests without oversight.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  unless they slap “patriot act” on it. I’ve lived in Iran, I really don’t see much of a difference in how the US operates. The U.S. just does more paperwork to justify their shit.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  What's the practical difference between AT&T "god credentials" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A ?
AbrahamParangi 3y ago
Okay, look. Can we at least recognize that these are not the same? It’s like saying the US has done a bad thing and China has done a bad thing so the US and China have the same number, kind, and quality of oppressions of the public. This is not true!
conjectures 3y ago
To test the hypothesis that China is worse than the US, it doesn't suffice to point out that 'US bad'.
dralley 3y ago
PRISM was not a backdoor into company networks, it was a system by which the companies involved submitted data that was requested through the normal legal channels. You can dispute how valid those legal channels are, but the point is this is widely misunderstood. Comparing it against the government having "god credentials" to the entire backend is disingenuous.
- roenxi 3y ago
  There are some logical weaknesses there. Do you think the CCP is acting against the wishes of the Chinese government? Obviously what is happening in China is being done through the normal legal channels. The government knows about this and isn't about to prosecute anyone. The US government is spying on literally everyone. You can't name anyone who has a web presence and isn't caught in the dragnet.
  - chrisco255 3y ago
    The CCP is the Chinese government. They are one and the same. I don't think you seem to understand much at all about the sophistication of Chinese electronic surveillance.
  - ngc248 3y ago
    >>> Do you think the CCP is acting against the wishes of the Chinese government? Obviously what is happening in China is being done through the normal legal channels. CCP is the Chinese government. They are the law. when you say normal legal channels, it is not the same "normal" as in democratic countries.
- woooooo 3y ago
  No legal channels necessary for non-US citizens. The government just asks and the companies just comply, because why not.

jonfw 3y ago

An important difference is that the US government doesn't have a "god credential", they have to request the data (and there is a process to request the data involving courts, etc.) Meanwhile, govt officials in China appear to have unrestricted access

CrackerNews 3y ago
An opaque process of secret courts with secret decisions may be different legally, but in spirit it does not seem that significantly different to me in terms of preventing overreach and abuse.
- black_puppydog 3y ago
  Especially if you happen to not be a US citizen, in which case there are no actual safeguards anyhow. IMHO this mirrors nicely the situation of a US citizen being concerned that the Chines govt won't protect their rights. This is how most of the world sees the US "checks" and "balances".
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    Even though I loathe spying, I must admit that the US (or any country for that matter) does not really have any natural or legal obligations to respect privacy of foreigners abroad. It is their own business to protect it themselves.
    - black_puppydog 3y ago
      Yeah, but then don't expect people to show much compassion when the same thing happens the other way around and the US immediately cries wolf.
      - inglor_cz 3y ago
        Not an American, and I don't. Big countries throwing tantrums is somewhat ludicrous anyway.
- salawat 3y ago
  The "secret" part there undoes pretty much your entire contention. That which doesn't see the light of day may as well not even exist.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  How many families are disappeared annually for the wrong political statements in the US?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
sfjailbird 3y ago
> the US government doesn't have a "god credential" Why are you so quick to believe they don't, and that China does? > process to request the data involving courts Secret courts that rubberstamp agency requests without oversight.
aaomidi 3y ago
unless they slap “patriot act” on it. I’ve lived in Iran, I really don’t see much of a difference in how the US operates. The U.S. just does more paperwork to justify their shit.
yencabulator 3y ago
What's the practical difference between AT&T "god credentials" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A ?

AbrahamParangi 3y ago

Okay, look. Can we at least recognize that these are not the same? It’s like saying the US has done a bad thing and China has done a bad thing so the US and China have the same number, kind, and quality of oppressions of the public. This is not true!

conjectures 3y ago

To test the hypothesis that China is worse than the US, it doesn't suffice to point out that 'US bad'.

dralley 3y ago

PRISM was not a backdoor into company networks, it was a system by which the companies involved submitted data that was requested through the normal legal channels. You can dispute how valid those legal channels are, but the point is this is widely misunderstood. Comparing it against the government having "god credentials" to the entire backend is disingenuous.

roenxi 3y ago
There are some logical weaknesses there. Do you think the CCP is acting against the wishes of the Chinese government? Obviously what is happening in China is being done through the normal legal channels. The government knows about this and isn't about to prosecute anyone. The US government is spying on literally everyone. You can't name anyone who has a web presence and isn't caught in the dragnet.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  The CCP is the Chinese government. They are one and the same. I don't think you seem to understand much at all about the sophistication of Chinese electronic surveillance.
- ngc248 3y ago
  >>> Do you think the CCP is acting against the wishes of the Chinese government? Obviously what is happening in China is being done through the normal legal channels. CCP is the Chinese government. They are the law. when you say normal legal channels, it is not the same "normal" as in democratic countries.
woooooo 3y ago
No legal channels necessary for non-US citizens. The government just asks and the companies just comply, because why not.