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The following can both be true: - Defense contractors, who have a vested interest in selling more weapons, are subtly influencing the public debate about Ukrai

The following can both be true: - Defense contractors, who have a vested interest in selling more weapons, are subtly influencing the public debate about Ukraine to convince the government to award more weapon contracts. - On its merits, from a purely strategic point of view, it would be a good idea to buy more weapons for Ukraine to help them push Russian forces out of occupied territories. So this is a situation where the greed of defense contractors may coincide with the common good, at least for a while. But we should remain vigilant and have safeguards in place to ensure that these firms don't price gouge the taxpayer.

willcipriano 3y ago
Since the media is clearly carrying water for the weapons manufacturers by bringing them on without disclosure of the huge and obvious conflict of interest, I doubt the accuracy of the merits of this conflict that were also presented by them.
- rob74 3y ago
  I think the merits of the conflict are pretty clear: Russia attacked Ukraine, an independent country, wanting to invade it. Which is something no one in Europe has done since Hitler. If that's not clear, I don't know what is...
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    What is unclear why that is a higher priority to the US taxpayer than say clean water in Flint as a single example. This seems like a Europe problem.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis > An extensive lead service pipe replacement effort has been underway since 2016. In early 2017, some officials asserted that the water quality had returned to acceptable levels, but in January 2019, residents and officials expressed doubt about the cleanliness of the water. There were an estimated 2,500 lead service pipes still in place as of April 2019. As of December 8, 2020, fewer than 500 service lines still needed to be inspected. As of July 16, 2021, 27,133 water service lines had been excavated and inspected, resulting in the replacement of 10,059 lead pipes. After $400 million in state and federal spending, Flint has secured a clean water source, distributed filters to all who want them, and laid modern, safe, copper pipes to nearly every home in the city. Politico declared that its water is "just as good as any city's in Michigan." "We fixed it" presumably is part of why Flint is a lower priority than combating Russian wars of expansionary aggression. (The Ukraine war is, incidentally, a fascinatingly cheap way of kneecapping Russia. It's beyond the wildest wet dreams of the Cold Warriors in cost effectiveness.)
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        Ok, so you won't ever complain about a underfunded school or similar ever again? Teachers make plenty, the IRS is well funded, everything is great? Put another way: When the war is over we can expect tax cuts as we don't have any domestic priorities to spend it on right?
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Ok, so you won't ever complain about a underfunded school or similar ever again? I think the wealthiest country the world can manage to fund both.
        pastacacioepepe 3y ago
        How can you say this while "the wealthiest country" still has people dying because they can't afford medication?
        willcipriano 3y ago
        The evidence is to the contrary. After decades of war in the middle east our infrastructure is crumbling, poverty is on the rise, kids are living in homes with lead in the water and painted on the walls and we are still leaving our kids with a bill (national debt).
        bkor 3y ago
        > The evidence is to the contrary. That something is not done doesn't automatically prove it's due to e.g. Middle East, or giving really old stock to Ukraine. The US is more than capable of doing multiple things at the same time. Though, yeah, the infrastructure in the US is terrible and so on. It still doesn't prove that it's due to focussing on the military. E.g. the costs for medical care is way higher than any other country. It could've been done differently, but well, that's still not due to waging a war in the Middle East.
        willcipriano 3y ago
    - deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- fsloth 3y ago
  The war in Ukraine is pretty clear cut for a modern conflict. It's colonial war with a disturbingly high component of genocidal intent of eradicating Ukrainian culture and identity. It's as black and white as wars get.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > as well as bio-engineering "research" facilities that were ostensibly fronts for weapons manufacturing. What there is no evidence of this in any reality. > "Colonial war" and "genocidal intent" really don't factor into what Russia expected to be a fast annexation of its former territory. They keep talking about how Ukrainians aren't real people or a real country and that they will quote "kill as many Ukrainians" as it takes. Sounds like genocide to me.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        > What there is no evidence of this in any reality. Here is the state department talking about how they are worried that Russians will acquire the US funded biolabs in Ukraine: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questions-undersecretary-nuland-biolabs-ukraine https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questio... Reporting on the US funding via EcoHeath Alliance (same people behind the Wuhan lab, some evidence indicates may be a CIA front): https://expose-news.com/2022/03/18/ukraine-biolabs-and-connections-btw-metabiota-and-ecohealth/ https://expose-news.com/2022/03/18/ukraine-biolabs-and-conne... Seriously question the media you are watching that told you "no evidence" on this.
        _kbh_ 3y ago
        > Here is the state department talking about how they are worried that Russians will acquire the US funded biolabs in Ukraine: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questio https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questio... That is not evidence that they are a front for weapons manufacturing and you know it. The bio labs fake news is just Russian propaganda.
- sdfghswe 3y ago
  The Russian Empire committed genocide in Ukraine and the Soviet Union also committed genocide in Ukraine. Do you dispute these? If not, why is it a stretch that the Russian Federation is committing genocide in Ukraine?
notahacker 3y ago
Not only are both of those true, but a third thing is also true: the government-level pro-Ukraine narrative in Western countries has been unusually unfavourable to domestic weapons industries, with constant briefings about the need to be careful about what is supplied and how it can be used, rationales for not sending Ukraine stuff based around the idea Ukrainians are better off sticking with ex-Soviet equipment they know how to use and maintain, and the actual stuff supplied tending to be obsolete compared with the stuff defence contractors want to market. With the added irony that the biggest potential beneficiaries from demonstrating the military potential of their novel tech (SpaceX and Chinese civil drone manufacturers) want to disassociate themselves from the war...
- SanjayMehta 3y ago
  What you're saying is correct but is missing one important factor. Former Warsaw pact countries shipped their Soviet era materiel to Ukraine and are backfilling with modern NATO equipment.
  - notahacker 3y ago
    Oh, agreed, they'll still make money from replacement programs being brought forward But if they were driving the narrative we wouldn't have weapons sent following months of government's explaining that actually it wouldn't be a good thing to send these weapons to Ukraine because they'd struggle for reliability in the conditions and Ukranian mechanics wouldn't be able to handle them, so in a way sending them older tech was doing them a favour....
    - SanjayMehta 3y ago
      Short term thinking drives their narratives. And money. Take the F-16s question. Last year Biden said sending F-16s to Ukraine would mean World War 3, now he's changed his mind. Technically he's not sending them, but he's not holding back on others sending them. The next escalation will have him sending them. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MpMbBl24L0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MpMbBl24L0 2. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65649471 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65649471
sdfghswe 3y ago
Bingo. A refreshing case of capitalism working as intended: corporations seeking to further their interests is actually a good outcome in this case.
- mydriasis 3y ago
  Not much of a victory there and, frankly, seems to be "just by happenstance" that the man-eating machine happens to be eating the right men for once. I'm not refreshed.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  In other words, an anomaly?
pastacacioepepe 3y ago
What about defense contractors lobbying governments to favor military solutions to diplomatic ones?
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  What diplomatic solutions? Russia thinks Ukraine is a fake nation that shouldn't exist. Putin re-iterated that claim a week ago by showing one map from 1700 without Ukraine. The only diplomatic solution is for Russia to pull back its forces.
  - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
    Honestly, it's not up to you to say. Real diplomacy happens behind the scenes. What politicians say in public is just a facade. That's not even the point anyway. I'm asking about the possibility of military contractors lobbying for more war, as literally any business will lobby for more problems to be solved with the solution they sell. > The only diplomatic solution is for Russia to pull back its forces. Please don't alter the established meaning of words. That's not diplomatic, that's a military victory of Ukraine where Russia is forced to retreat. Additionally the solution you propose comes at the cost of potentially hundred thousands more deaths on both sides, while a cease-fire would come at the cost of some territory for Ukraine. I value life over territory.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > Additionally the solution you propose comes at the cost of potentially hundred thousands more deaths on both sides, while a cease-fire would come at the cost of some territory for Ukraine. I value life over territory. A ceasefire comes at the cost of all Ukrainian lives in the territory that Russia has already invaded. Additionally all a ceasefire does is allow Russia to build up its forces again and invade in the future.
      - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
        > A ceasefire comes at the cost of all Ukrainian lives in the territory that Russia has already invaded. Based on what? These are mostly the ethnical Russian in eastern Ukraine. Anyone who didn't like Russia has long left before the territory could be taken. Many of these people even have relatives in Russia. Now why do you assume Russia will simply exterminate any living being in the territories it just taken? > Additionally all a ceasefire does is allow Russia to build up its forces again and invade in the future. Why do you assume Ukraine has to sit waiting without doing anything in the meantime? Ukraine can build up forces as much as Russia can. Ukraine could join NATO as well. There are countless solutions to your problem that don't require any lives to be sacrificed for it.

willcipriano 3y ago

Since the media is clearly carrying water for the weapons manufacturers by bringing them on without disclosure of the huge and obvious conflict of interest, I doubt the accuracy of the merits of this conflict that were also presented by them.

rob74 3y ago
I think the merits of the conflict are pretty clear: Russia attacked Ukraine, an independent country, wanting to invade it. Which is something no one in Europe has done since Hitler. If that's not clear, I don't know what is...
- willcipriano 3y ago
  What is unclear why that is a higher priority to the US taxpayer than say clean water in Flint as a single example. This seems like a Europe problem.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis > An extensive lead service pipe replacement effort has been underway since 2016. In early 2017, some officials asserted that the water quality had returned to acceptable levels, but in January 2019, residents and officials expressed doubt about the cleanliness of the water. There were an estimated 2,500 lead service pipes still in place as of April 2019. As of December 8, 2020, fewer than 500 service lines still needed to be inspected. As of July 16, 2021, 27,133 water service lines had been excavated and inspected, resulting in the replacement of 10,059 lead pipes. After $400 million in state and federal spending, Flint has secured a clean water source, distributed filters to all who want them, and laid modern, safe, copper pipes to nearly every home in the city. Politico declared that its water is "just as good as any city's in Michigan." "We fixed it" presumably is part of why Flint is a lower priority than combating Russian wars of expansionary aggression. (The Ukraine war is, incidentally, a fascinatingly cheap way of kneecapping Russia. It's beyond the wildest wet dreams of the Cold Warriors in cost effectiveness.)
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      Ok, so you won't ever complain about a underfunded school or similar ever again? Teachers make plenty, the IRS is well funded, everything is great? Put another way: When the war is over we can expect tax cuts as we don't have any domestic priorities to spend it on right?
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Ok, so you won't ever complain about a underfunded school or similar ever again? I think the wealthiest country the world can manage to fund both.
        pastacacioepepe 3y ago
        How can you say this while "the wealthiest country" still has people dying because they can't afford medication?
        willcipriano 3y ago
        The evidence is to the contrary. After decades of war in the middle east our infrastructure is crumbling, poverty is on the rise, kids are living in homes with lead in the water and painted on the walls and we are still leaving our kids with a bill (national debt).
        bkor 3y ago
        > The evidence is to the contrary. That something is not done doesn't automatically prove it's due to e.g. Middle East, or giving really old stock to Ukraine. The US is more than capable of doing multiple things at the same time. Though, yeah, the infrastructure in the US is terrible and so on. It still doesn't prove that it's due to focussing on the military. E.g. the costs for medical care is way higher than any other country. It could've been done differently, but well, that's still not due to waging a war in the Middle East.
        willcipriano 3y ago
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fsloth 3y ago
The war in Ukraine is pretty clear cut for a modern conflict. It's colonial war with a disturbingly high component of genocidal intent of eradicating Ukrainian culture and identity. It's as black and white as wars get.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > as well as bio-engineering "research" facilities that were ostensibly fronts for weapons manufacturing. What there is no evidence of this in any reality. > "Colonial war" and "genocidal intent" really don't factor into what Russia expected to be a fast annexation of its former territory. They keep talking about how Ukrainians aren't real people or a real country and that they will quote "kill as many Ukrainians" as it takes. Sounds like genocide to me.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      > What there is no evidence of this in any reality. Here is the state department talking about how they are worried that Russians will acquire the US funded biolabs in Ukraine: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questions-undersecretary-nuland-biolabs-ukraine https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questio... Reporting on the US funding via EcoHeath Alliance (same people behind the Wuhan lab, some evidence indicates may be a CIA front): https://expose-news.com/2022/03/18/ukraine-biolabs-and-connections-btw-metabiota-and-ecohealth/ https://expose-news.com/2022/03/18/ukraine-biolabs-and-conne... Seriously question the media you are watching that told you "no evidence" on this.
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        > Here is the state department talking about how they are worried that Russians will acquire the US funded biolabs in Ukraine: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questio https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5005520/senator-rubio-questio... That is not evidence that they are a front for weapons manufacturing and you know it. The bio labs fake news is just Russian propaganda.
sdfghswe 3y ago
The Russian Empire committed genocide in Ukraine and the Soviet Union also committed genocide in Ukraine. Do you dispute these? If not, why is it a stretch that the Russian Federation is committing genocide in Ukraine?

notahacker 3y ago

Not only are both of those true, but a third thing is also true: the government-level pro-Ukraine narrative in Western countries has been unusually unfavourable to domestic weapons industries, with constant briefings about the need to be careful about what is supplied and how it can be used, rationales for not sending Ukraine stuff based around the idea Ukrainians are better off sticking with ex-Soviet equipment they know how to use and maintain, and the actual stuff supplied tending to be obsolete compared with the stuff defence contractors want to market. With the added irony that the biggest potential beneficiaries from demonstrating the military potential of their novel tech (SpaceX and Chinese civil drone manufacturers) want to disassociate themselves from the war...

SanjayMehta 3y ago
What you're saying is correct but is missing one important factor. Former Warsaw pact countries shipped their Soviet era materiel to Ukraine and are backfilling with modern NATO equipment.
- notahacker 3y ago
  Oh, agreed, they'll still make money from replacement programs being brought forward But if they were driving the narrative we wouldn't have weapons sent following months of government's explaining that actually it wouldn't be a good thing to send these weapons to Ukraine because they'd struggle for reliability in the conditions and Ukranian mechanics wouldn't be able to handle them, so in a way sending them older tech was doing them a favour....
  - SanjayMehta 3y ago
    Short term thinking drives their narratives. And money. Take the F-16s question. Last year Biden said sending F-16s to Ukraine would mean World War 3, now he's changed his mind. Technically he's not sending them, but he's not holding back on others sending them. The next escalation will have him sending them. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MpMbBl24L0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MpMbBl24L0 2. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65649471 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65649471

sdfghswe 3y ago

Bingo. A refreshing case of capitalism working as intended: corporations seeking to further their interests is actually a good outcome in this case.

mydriasis 3y ago
Not much of a victory there and, frankly, seems to be "just by happenstance" that the man-eating machine happens to be eating the right men for once. I'm not refreshed.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
In other words, an anomaly?

pastacacioepepe 3y ago

What about defense contractors lobbying governments to favor military solutions to diplomatic ones?

0xDEF 3y ago
What diplomatic solutions? Russia thinks Ukraine is a fake nation that shouldn't exist. Putin re-iterated that claim a week ago by showing one map from 1700 without Ukraine. The only diplomatic solution is for Russia to pull back its forces.
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  Honestly, it's not up to you to say. Real diplomacy happens behind the scenes. What politicians say in public is just a facade. That's not even the point anyway. I'm asking about the possibility of military contractors lobbying for more war, as literally any business will lobby for more problems to be solved with the solution they sell. > The only diplomatic solution is for Russia to pull back its forces. Please don't alter the established meaning of words. That's not diplomatic, that's a military victory of Ukraine where Russia is forced to retreat. Additionally the solution you propose comes at the cost of potentially hundred thousands more deaths on both sides, while a cease-fire would come at the cost of some territory for Ukraine. I value life over territory.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Additionally the solution you propose comes at the cost of potentially hundred thousands more deaths on both sides, while a cease-fire would come at the cost of some territory for Ukraine. I value life over territory. A ceasefire comes at the cost of all Ukrainian lives in the territory that Russia has already invaded. Additionally all a ceasefire does is allow Russia to build up its forces again and invade in the future.
    - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
      > A ceasefire comes at the cost of all Ukrainian lives in the territory that Russia has already invaded. Based on what? These are mostly the ethnical Russian in eastern Ukraine. Anyone who didn't like Russia has long left before the territory could be taken. Many of these people even have relatives in Russia. Now why do you assume Russia will simply exterminate any living being in the territories it just taken? > Additionally all a ceasefire does is allow Russia to build up its forces again and invade in the future. Why do you assume Ukraine has to sit waiting without doing anything in the meantime? Ukraine can build up forces as much as Russia can. Ukraine could join NATO as well. There are countless solutions to your problem that don't require any lives to be sacrificed for it.