9 ms·

This is propaganda and you don't even know it... People get silenced in the US every day because they have a different opinions on current events, for example t

This is propaganda and you don't even know it... People get silenced in the US every day because they have a different opinions on current events, for example the US proxy war with Russia. I always noticed when certain amount of decades pass it's okay to say certain things, like "Allende was assassinated by the CIA", but back then you'd get persecuted to even mention that. Yes, when it doesn't matter you can say whatever you want, god bless the USA... Because of opinions like yours is that America is the empire who gets the "Okay" to be the police of the world, and it's terrible at that.

mschuster91 3y ago
> People get silenced in the US every day because they have a different opinions on current events, for example the US proxy war with Russia. Uh, sorry what? It was Russia that decided to invade a sovereign country for annexation. Not the other way around. And of course everyone is free to disagree with your take. You are not being "silenced" or "canceled", you are being told your opinion is completely contrary to facts.
- lifewallet_dev 3y ago
  More propaganda, listen to the other side... oh well it's banned everywhere.
  - eloisius 3y ago
    Can you please provide some examples of “the other side” that have been banned? I’m not in the US, but a country tightly aligned with the US, and I am able to access rt.com just fine.
    - lifewallet_dev 3y ago
      I also don't live in the west, rather the global south, in a not so allied country. When in Europe and in the US. You'll get something like this on twitter, and obviously you cannot access the site either: @ActualidadRT's account has been withheld in Portugal, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Italy, Malta, Germany, Greece, Romania, Netherlands, Bulgaria, Austria, Luxembourg, Latvia, United Kingdom, Denmark, Lithuania, Croatia, Estonia, Cyprus, France, Spain, Belgium in response to a legal demand. https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/tweet-withheld-by-country https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/tweet-withhel...
      - kbrkbr 3y ago
        Then this is a court order based on laws and a legal process. In no way is this comparable to how Russia treats different opinions.
      - B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
        The internet ... huh ... finds a way ... https://swentr.site/ https://swentr.site/
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > More propaganda, listen to the other side... oh well it's banned everywhere. What are you talking about this, is literally false, I see pro Russian narratives everywhere, including here, you guys don't get banned despite how despicable the views you hold are. Support Russias genocidal, torturous, raping war in Ukraine all you want, but don't shout about being banned when you get shouted down by facts.
  - ptsneves 3y ago
    I have some sympathy for contrarians, not because of their accuracy but because they are the canary in the mine for freedom of speech. Wrong statements also give the opportunity for argument and thus replacement of dogma with reasoning. I upvoted you above, and I believe your opinion on the proxy war is valid. Victimizing yourself though means that you are unable to stand by your arguments and are just poisoning the well for others who can. Having a different opinion requires effort and often disparagement. > More propaganda, listen to the other side... oh well it's banned everywhere. This is just low effort.
- paol 3y ago
  Both things can be true. Yes, Russia is 100% responsible for this war, and yes, the US (and others) are fighting a proxy war through Ukraine in good old cold war style.
  - mejutoco 3y ago
    Another way to say it without the added narrative is to simply say Ukraine has allies, and the USA is one of them.
    - paol 3y ago
      I wouldn't call the term proxy war a narrative. It's a term with a definition, which applies here. This is also a "both things can be true" case. Obviously the supporters of a proxy war are allies of the party they're supporting.
      - mejutoco 3y ago
        I am not trying to argue with you or change your mind, but I will write a few reasons why I see the term proxy war often used by pro-Putin commenters to push a narrative. Not saying you are. Using the term proxy war: 1. Makes it sound as if the USA is the cause of this war (they are in a proxy war) instead of an attack on Ukraine, and Ukraine seeking help from allies. As if the USA were driving the whole thing. 2. It perpetuates a cold war approach and vocabulary, making Russia look like the superpower it was (and is not anymore). 3. The cold war way of talking about it, additionally, makes it look like there are two sides, two alternatives, which are equally valid and justified. Because of these reasons, I say there is a narrative, and do not consider the term neutral. I personally avoid the term proxy war because of the connotations above.
        shkkmo 3y ago
        > It perpetuates a cold war approach and vocabulary, making Russia look like the superpower it was (and is not anymore). It isn't the "superpower" status of Russia that makes this a cold war, but the "nuclear power" status. It is precisely a proxy war because you have two nuclear powers that are explicitly avoiding direct conflict due to the risk of nuclear war. However, One might argue that the true cold war is between the USA and China and that both Ukraine and Russia are proxies. > The cold war way of talking about it, additionally, makes it look like there are two sides, two alternatives, which are equally valid and justified. In what way? "Cold war" absolutely doesn't have any connotation of moral equivalence between the two sides. This is the sort of weird absolutism and rejection of nuance that is a hallmark of propaganda. It is absolutely possible to assign culpability to certain actions taken by the US without even remotely asserting that both sides are equally culpable for the war in Ukraine. It is possible to think that containing an expansionist nuclear power without triggering a nuclear war is hard and requires a walking a fine line while also thinking that there are powerful forces inside the US that stand to gain a lot by encouraging and then prolonging this conflict. Part of the power of narratives is that they become an easy way to group and dismiss dissent without engaging with any of the specific concerns expressed in that dissent.
- chaosbolt 3y ago
  Yes Russia did invade Ukraine, but wouldn't the US invade Canada if Russia had organized a coup there to get rid of Trudeau then put a Russian puppet there? Of course the US would... Or would you argue that the 2014 Ukrainian coup wasn't supported by the US? The thing we never mention is how agressive Nato (the US since it has military bases in Turkey for example, while Turkey doesn't have military bases in the US) has been at pushing its borders towards Russia. In the end we can call this whatever we want, the facts are clear, if Zelensky had resigned less Ukrainians would have died, and the only ones profiting from this are the US, you can't fight a country like Russia, they have 7000 nukes, it's like thinking Mike Tyson is losing against you because he's too nice to punch you in the face... eventually he will. The arguments used today are the same as ever (we're freeing the Vietnamese, the Iraqis, etc.), if you look at it as it really is, less dead people is better than more dead people, eventually Ukraine will be destroyed and the US will not even help to rebuild it, if you think they will then look at Iraq.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > Or would you argue that the 2014 Ukrainian coup wasn't supported by the US? Yanukovich fled the country all on his own, after police didn't back his government any more following months of massive protests. These protests in turn came from Yanukovich not signing an agreement with the EU that was already ratified by the parliament. > the facts are clear, if Zelensky had resigned less Ukrainians would have died Lol. Just look on Butcha and all the other places where Russian troops massacred the local population, or where they eradicated everything Ukrainian, from street signs to library books. There would have been no freedom under Russian rule. > you can't fight a country like Russia Of course one can fight a country like Russia. They lost 100.000 units fighting over Bakhmut in the last months and made absolutely zero progress in their war. > they have 7000 nukes, it's like thinking Mike Tyson is losing against you because he's too nice to punch you in the face... eventually he will. That assumes two things: first, that the nuclear weapons and their launch systems actually work - the sorry state of the ordinary Russian troops makes me seriously question just how much of the rest of their military has gone downhill. The second thing is, it assumes Putin is completely lost in madness. China and the US have it made very clear behind the doors that using anything nuclear is something Putin does not want to do, and in exchange the US and Ukraine's other allies have placed the condition on all major arms deliveries that these are not to be used to attack targets in Russia. Seems to have worked out pretty well so far.
idontwantthis 3y ago
Here you are tacitly expressing your opinion about “the proxy war”. Hope you don’t get persecuted too hard.
- lifewallet_dev 3y ago
  That's what it is, but okay, I'll probably get banned here for saying that anyways :), the free world woo!
  - varjag 3y ago
    No, you're more likely to simply be downvoted into grey, as the aggregate of HN is not a conspiracist crackpot.
    - lifewallet_dev 3y ago
      Just that, it is, I've been banned before, for even lighter things...
    - refused_cov_vax 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - varjag 3y ago
        Ukraine had seen proxy war just for a few months in spring/summer 2014, until Russia moved in its regular troops to save its sponsored para-militaries in Donbas. Right now it's a war of invaded nation against invader nation, non conspiracist mr refused_cov_vax.
hkpack 3y ago
> for example the US proxy war with Russia. Yeah, as a Ukrainian, this triggers me well, good job. I think that it is good that you feel being silenced. The world in which a person who have absolutely zero idea what he is talking about will feel cheered, is a very scary to me. Until then, there is hope.
- redeeman 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Also, How come ukraine has not won yet?. A better question to ask, is why has the "2nd most powerful military" on earth failing to capture a city <=300km from their own borders? and with there current rate of advancement will take all of Ukraine in ~30/40 years.
    - bombolo 3y ago
      Keep in mind that USA is struggling to build and ship enough ammunitions…
    - redeeman 3y ago
      i wouldnt call russias military anywhere near "2nd most powerful", very very far from it. but the reason is simply, russia isnt out to destroy ukraine as a mortal enemy, as such, there are huge limitations to what can be done, and ukraine has some advantages here. if russia wanted to, they could simply bomb ukraine to pieces, all over ukraine, if they wanted to. They clearly done
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        > but the reason is simply, russia isnt out to destroy ukraine as a mortal enemy, as such, there are huge limitations to what can be done, and ukraine has some advantages here. if russia wanted to, they could simply bomb ukraine to pieces, all over ukraine, if they wanted to. They clearly done Have you seen what Bakhmut looks like?. Russia is totally out to wipe Ukraine off the map that is their entire intention just like how Grozny looked after the Russians rolled through. The difference is they are wholly incapable of implementing what they want to do.
_kbh_ 3y ago
> This is propaganda and you don't even know it... People get silenced in the US every day because they have a different opinions on current events, for example the US proxy war with Russia. The irony of your blatantly false statements is that half of what people express on the war in Ukraine here would cause them to end up in jail in Russia, but the opposite views don't cause you to end up in jail in the west.
- berdario 3y ago
  Of course you don't "end up in jail in the west". First they freeze your assets, and only then if you're foolish enough to subject yourself to the due process, you might end up in jail. There's an handful of people from the west who went to Donbass to report the situation. They are (of course?) mostly supportive of Russia, so you shouldn't delude yourself in thinking that they are unbiased... but they have regularly been threatened with prosecution if/when they'll return, example: https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-faces-three-years-prison-over-reporting-donbass-region https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-...
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-faces-three-years-prison-over-reporting-donbass-region https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-... Do you have a source that doesn't just wholeheartedly parrot Russian and CCP talking points?.
    - berdario 3y ago
      We're talking about criminal proceedings here, it's not a "talking point" for which you can doubt its veracity. There's plenty of corroboration https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/11/alina-lipp-germany-green-party-russia-propaganda-ukraine-invasion/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/11/alina-lipp...
      - _kbh_ 3y ago

mschuster91 3y ago

> People get silenced in the US every day because they have a different opinions on current events, for example the US proxy war with Russia. Uh, sorry what? It was Russia that decided to invade a sovereign country for annexation. Not the other way around. And of course everyone is free to disagree with your take. You are not being "silenced" or "canceled", you are being told your opinion is completely contrary to facts.

lifewallet_dev 3y ago
More propaganda, listen to the other side... oh well it's banned everywhere.
- eloisius 3y ago
  Can you please provide some examples of “the other side” that have been banned? I’m not in the US, but a country tightly aligned with the US, and I am able to access rt.com just fine.
  - lifewallet_dev 3y ago
    I also don't live in the west, rather the global south, in a not so allied country. When in Europe and in the US. You'll get something like this on twitter, and obviously you cannot access the site either: @ActualidadRT's account has been withheld in Portugal, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Italy, Malta, Germany, Greece, Romania, Netherlands, Bulgaria, Austria, Luxembourg, Latvia, United Kingdom, Denmark, Lithuania, Croatia, Estonia, Cyprus, France, Spain, Belgium in response to a legal demand. https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/tweet-withheld-by-country https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/tweet-withhel...
    - kbrkbr 3y ago
      Then this is a court order based on laws and a legal process. In no way is this comparable to how Russia treats different opinions.
    - B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
      The internet ... huh ... finds a way ... https://swentr.site/ https://swentr.site/
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > More propaganda, listen to the other side... oh well it's banned everywhere. What are you talking about this, is literally false, I see pro Russian narratives everywhere, including here, you guys don't get banned despite how despicable the views you hold are. Support Russias genocidal, torturous, raping war in Ukraine all you want, but don't shout about being banned when you get shouted down by facts.
- ptsneves 3y ago
  I have some sympathy for contrarians, not because of their accuracy but because they are the canary in the mine for freedom of speech. Wrong statements also give the opportunity for argument and thus replacement of dogma with reasoning. I upvoted you above, and I believe your opinion on the proxy war is valid. Victimizing yourself though means that you are unable to stand by your arguments and are just poisoning the well for others who can. Having a different opinion requires effort and often disparagement. > More propaganda, listen to the other side... oh well it's banned everywhere. This is just low effort.
paol 3y ago
Both things can be true. Yes, Russia is 100% responsible for this war, and yes, the US (and others) are fighting a proxy war through Ukraine in good old cold war style.
- mejutoco 3y ago
  Another way to say it without the added narrative is to simply say Ukraine has allies, and the USA is one of them.
  - paol 3y ago
    I wouldn't call the term proxy war a narrative. It's a term with a definition, which applies here. This is also a "both things can be true" case. Obviously the supporters of a proxy war are allies of the party they're supporting.
    - mejutoco 3y ago
      I am not trying to argue with you or change your mind, but I will write a few reasons why I see the term proxy war often used by pro-Putin commenters to push a narrative. Not saying you are. Using the term proxy war: 1. Makes it sound as if the USA is the cause of this war (they are in a proxy war) instead of an attack on Ukraine, and Ukraine seeking help from allies. As if the USA were driving the whole thing. 2. It perpetuates a cold war approach and vocabulary, making Russia look like the superpower it was (and is not anymore). 3. The cold war way of talking about it, additionally, makes it look like there are two sides, two alternatives, which are equally valid and justified. Because of these reasons, I say there is a narrative, and do not consider the term neutral. I personally avoid the term proxy war because of the connotations above.
      - shkkmo 3y ago
        > It perpetuates a cold war approach and vocabulary, making Russia look like the superpower it was (and is not anymore). It isn't the "superpower" status of Russia that makes this a cold war, but the "nuclear power" status. It is precisely a proxy war because you have two nuclear powers that are explicitly avoiding direct conflict due to the risk of nuclear war. However, One might argue that the true cold war is between the USA and China and that both Ukraine and Russia are proxies. > The cold war way of talking about it, additionally, makes it look like there are two sides, two alternatives, which are equally valid and justified. In what way? "Cold war" absolutely doesn't have any connotation of moral equivalence between the two sides. This is the sort of weird absolutism and rejection of nuance that is a hallmark of propaganda. It is absolutely possible to assign culpability to certain actions taken by the US without even remotely asserting that both sides are equally culpable for the war in Ukraine. It is possible to think that containing an expansionist nuclear power without triggering a nuclear war is hard and requires a walking a fine line while also thinking that there are powerful forces inside the US that stand to gain a lot by encouraging and then prolonging this conflict. Part of the power of narratives is that they become an easy way to group and dismiss dissent without engaging with any of the specific concerns expressed in that dissent.
chaosbolt 3y ago
Yes Russia did invade Ukraine, but wouldn't the US invade Canada if Russia had organized a coup there to get rid of Trudeau then put a Russian puppet there? Of course the US would... Or would you argue that the 2014 Ukrainian coup wasn't supported by the US? The thing we never mention is how agressive Nato (the US since it has military bases in Turkey for example, while Turkey doesn't have military bases in the US) has been at pushing its borders towards Russia. In the end we can call this whatever we want, the facts are clear, if Zelensky had resigned less Ukrainians would have died, and the only ones profiting from this are the US, you can't fight a country like Russia, they have 7000 nukes, it's like thinking Mike Tyson is losing against you because he's too nice to punch you in the face... eventually he will. The arguments used today are the same as ever (we're freeing the Vietnamese, the Iraqis, etc.), if you look at it as it really is, less dead people is better than more dead people, eventually Ukraine will be destroyed and the US will not even help to rebuild it, if you think they will then look at Iraq.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Or would you argue that the 2014 Ukrainian coup wasn't supported by the US? Yanukovich fled the country all on his own, after police didn't back his government any more following months of massive protests. These protests in turn came from Yanukovich not signing an agreement with the EU that was already ratified by the parliament. > the facts are clear, if Zelensky had resigned less Ukrainians would have died Lol. Just look on Butcha and all the other places where Russian troops massacred the local population, or where they eradicated everything Ukrainian, from street signs to library books. There would have been no freedom under Russian rule. > you can't fight a country like Russia Of course one can fight a country like Russia. They lost 100.000 units fighting over Bakhmut in the last months and made absolutely zero progress in their war. > they have 7000 nukes, it's like thinking Mike Tyson is losing against you because he's too nice to punch you in the face... eventually he will. That assumes two things: first, that the nuclear weapons and their launch systems actually work - the sorry state of the ordinary Russian troops makes me seriously question just how much of the rest of their military has gone downhill. The second thing is, it assumes Putin is completely lost in madness. China and the US have it made very clear behind the doors that using anything nuclear is something Putin does not want to do, and in exchange the US and Ukraine's other allies have placed the condition on all major arms deliveries that these are not to be used to attack targets in Russia. Seems to have worked out pretty well so far.

idontwantthis 3y ago

Here you are tacitly expressing your opinion about “the proxy war”. Hope you don’t get persecuted too hard.

lifewallet_dev 3y ago
That's what it is, but okay, I'll probably get banned here for saying that anyways :), the free world woo!
- varjag 3y ago
  No, you're more likely to simply be downvoted into grey, as the aggregate of HN is not a conspiracist crackpot.
  - lifewallet_dev 3y ago
    Just that, it is, I've been banned before, for even lighter things...
  - refused_cov_vax 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - varjag 3y ago
      Ukraine had seen proxy war just for a few months in spring/summer 2014, until Russia moved in its regular troops to save its sponsored para-militaries in Donbas. Right now it's a war of invaded nation against invader nation, non conspiracist mr refused_cov_vax.

hkpack 3y ago

> for example the US proxy war with Russia. Yeah, as a Ukrainian, this triggers me well, good job. I think that it is good that you feel being silenced. The world in which a person who have absolutely zero idea what he is talking about will feel cheered, is a very scary to me. Until then, there is hope.

redeeman 3y ago
[flagged]
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Also, How come ukraine has not won yet?. A better question to ask, is why has the "2nd most powerful military" on earth failing to capture a city <=300km from their own borders? and with there current rate of advancement will take all of Ukraine in ~30/40 years.
  - bombolo 3y ago
    Keep in mind that USA is struggling to build and ship enough ammunitions…
  - redeeman 3y ago
    i wouldnt call russias military anywhere near "2nd most powerful", very very far from it. but the reason is simply, russia isnt out to destroy ukraine as a mortal enemy, as such, there are huge limitations to what can be done, and ukraine has some advantages here. if russia wanted to, they could simply bomb ukraine to pieces, all over ukraine, if they wanted to. They clearly done
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > but the reason is simply, russia isnt out to destroy ukraine as a mortal enemy, as such, there are huge limitations to what can be done, and ukraine has some advantages here. if russia wanted to, they could simply bomb ukraine to pieces, all over ukraine, if they wanted to. They clearly done Have you seen what Bakhmut looks like?. Russia is totally out to wipe Ukraine off the map that is their entire intention just like how Grozny looked after the Russians rolled through. The difference is they are wholly incapable of implementing what they want to do.

_kbh_ 3y ago

> This is propaganda and you don't even know it... People get silenced in the US every day because they have a different opinions on current events, for example the US proxy war with Russia. The irony of your blatantly false statements is that half of what people express on the war in Ukraine here would cause them to end up in jail in Russia, but the opposite views don't cause you to end up in jail in the west.

berdario 3y ago
Of course you don't "end up in jail in the west". First they freeze your assets, and only then if you're foolish enough to subject yourself to the due process, you might end up in jail. There's an handful of people from the west who went to Donbass to report the situation. They are (of course?) mostly supportive of Russia, so you shouldn't delude yourself in thinking that they are unbiased... but they have regularly been threatened with prosecution if/when they'll return, example: https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-faces-three-years-prison-over-reporting-donbass-region https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-...
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-faces-three-years-prison-over-reporting-donbass-region https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/german-journalist-... Do you have a source that doesn't just wholeheartedly parrot Russian and CCP talking points?.
  - berdario 3y ago
    We're talking about criminal proceedings here, it's not a "talking point" for which you can doubt its veracity. There's plenty of corroboration https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/11/alina-lipp-germany-green-party-russia-propaganda-ukraine-invasion/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/11/alina-lipp...
    - _kbh_ 3y ago