15 ms·

Possibly because the firmware could be modified, and not print the required yellow dots or other tracking data: https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-d

Possibly because the firmware could be modified, and not print the required yellow dots or other tracking data: https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d... "Some of the documents that we previously received through FOIA suggested that all major manufacturers of color laser printers entered a secret agreement with governments to ensure that the output of those printers is forensically traceable."

ed25519FUUU 3y ago
Nothing in that article suggest that open source firmware needs to print the yellow tracking dots, or that that feature can’t be disabled by users.
- junon 3y ago
  I think that's the reason it doesn't exist.
  - Fatnino 3y ago
    The yellow dot feature doesn't exist? It most certainly does. You can see this yourself by putting a darker ink in place of the yellow in your printer.
    - Bjartr 3y ago
      No, they're saying the reason open source firmware doesn't exist is because doing so could allow you to not print the dots when printing.
walterbell 3y ago
> output of those printers is forensically traceable Are similar techniques used in 3D printers?
- mbreese 3y ago
  Given that there is open source firmware for 3D printers, I’d say no. Also, the “resolution” of 3D printers is not high enough to allow for a tell tale “mark” that was otherwise undetectable.
  - stavros 3y ago
    Also you can't 3D print bank notes.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      I mean you can't laser print bank notes either, not just because of the EURion constellation [1], but because they look and feel literally nothing like bank notes. I honestly never understood the imeptus. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation
      - exmadscientist 3y ago
        Oh, you can absolutely laser print bank notes. It used to be a thing in the 90s, either with color laser printers or color photocopiers. Of course, they're absolutely horrid fakes. Now, the only person dumber than a criminal who would think to try this is a store clerk who would accept these. So it is not an effective crime, unless the effect you want is "jail, quickly". But it is nonetheless a real crime.
        throwaway2990 3y ago
        In the 90s it was easy cos it wasn’t wide spread so easy to get away with.
        yarg 3y ago
        > Now, the only person dumber than a criminal who would think to try this is a store clerk who would accept these. Not always - it'll often be safer just to accept the "money" and contact the police directly afterwards.
nerdbert 3y ago
Out of curiosity, why couldn't I make a printer driver that always sent the printer data with some extra yellow dots scattered around, in an arrangement that would make the tracking codes illegible?
- LanternLight83 3y ago
  Perhaps the yellow dot is placed slightly off from the axies of the standard grid, making it unforgeable through input data-- I'm not sure that's what they've done, but surely they have to have considered input sanitization to some degree
- junon 3y ago
  That's exactly how countermeasure software works. I believe it was both the EFF and CCC that developed counteractive software for this after initially discovering it (correct me if I'm wrong).
- IshKebab 3y ago
  I think it would be tricky to ensure that your dots were in valid places that the tracking dots could be. If you want to print a bomb threat or whatever it would be easier to use a black and white printer, or just fill the whole page with yellow.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  The firmware would make sure the significant yellow dot patterns would be recognisable by not printing some of those yellow dots you tell it to print. As long as the firmware has the final say on what ends up printed there is no way you can avoid those watermarks no matter how cunning your scheme is. Stalin was right when he said "It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes" - this is just as applicable here: "It's not who orders the print what counts, it's who prints the order".
copperx 3y ago
My B/W laser printer doesn't have a yellow toner cartridge. How are the yellow dots printed?
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  they are worried about currency forgery.
  - copperx 3y ago
    Haha, that didn't cross my mind. For some reason I thought they were concerned about ransom notes (facepalm.png).
- acherion 3y ago
  The article clearly states that the yellow dots are printed by _colour_ laser printers.
phendrenad2 3y ago
So what happens to people who try to make open-source firmware? They get a secret cease and desist slash gag order?
- xg15 3y ago
  Some men in suits and black sunglasses showing up at their door...

ed25519FUUU 3y ago

Nothing in that article suggest that open source firmware needs to print the yellow tracking dots, or that that feature can’t be disabled by users.

junon 3y ago
I think that's the reason it doesn't exist.
- Fatnino 3y ago
  The yellow dot feature doesn't exist? It most certainly does. You can see this yourself by putting a darker ink in place of the yellow in your printer.
  - Bjartr 3y ago
    No, they're saying the reason open source firmware doesn't exist is because doing so could allow you to not print the dots when printing.

walterbell 3y ago

> output of those printers is forensically traceable Are similar techniques used in 3D printers?

mbreese 3y ago
Given that there is open source firmware for 3D printers, I’d say no. Also, the “resolution” of 3D printers is not high enough to allow for a tell tale “mark” that was otherwise undetectable.
- stavros 3y ago
  Also you can't 3D print bank notes.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    I mean you can't laser print bank notes either, not just because of the EURion constellation [1], but because they look and feel literally nothing like bank notes. I honestly never understood the imeptus. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation
    - exmadscientist 3y ago
      Oh, you can absolutely laser print bank notes. It used to be a thing in the 90s, either with color laser printers or color photocopiers. Of course, they're absolutely horrid fakes. Now, the only person dumber than a criminal who would think to try this is a store clerk who would accept these. So it is not an effective crime, unless the effect you want is "jail, quickly". But it is nonetheless a real crime.
      - throwaway2990 3y ago
        In the 90s it was easy cos it wasn’t wide spread so easy to get away with.
      - yarg 3y ago
        > Now, the only person dumber than a criminal who would think to try this is a store clerk who would accept these. Not always - it'll often be safer just to accept the "money" and contact the police directly afterwards.

nerdbert 3y ago

Out of curiosity, why couldn't I make a printer driver that always sent the printer data with some extra yellow dots scattered around, in an arrangement that would make the tracking codes illegible?

LanternLight83 3y ago
Perhaps the yellow dot is placed slightly off from the axies of the standard grid, making it unforgeable through input data-- I'm not sure that's what they've done, but surely they have to have considered input sanitization to some degree
junon 3y ago
That's exactly how countermeasure software works. I believe it was both the EFF and CCC that developed counteractive software for this after initially discovering it (correct me if I'm wrong).
IshKebab 3y ago
I think it would be tricky to ensure that your dots were in valid places that the tracking dots could be. If you want to print a bomb threat or whatever it would be easier to use a black and white printer, or just fill the whole page with yellow.
the_third_wave 3y ago
The firmware would make sure the significant yellow dot patterns would be recognisable by not printing some of those yellow dots you tell it to print. As long as the firmware has the final say on what ends up printed there is no way you can avoid those watermarks no matter how cunning your scheme is. Stalin was right when he said "It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes" - this is just as applicable here: "It's not who orders the print what counts, it's who prints the order".

copperx 3y ago

My B/W laser printer doesn't have a yellow toner cartridge. How are the yellow dots printed?

sleepybrett 3y ago
they are worried about currency forgery.
- copperx 3y ago
  Haha, that didn't cross my mind. For some reason I thought they were concerned about ransom notes (facepalm.png).
acherion 3y ago
The article clearly states that the yellow dots are printed by _colour_ laser printers.

phendrenad2 3y ago

So what happens to people who try to make open-source firmware? They get a secret cease and desist slash gag order?

xg15 3y ago
Some men in suits and black sunglasses showing up at their door...