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Banks are a specific situation where employees can get one-sided rewards for increasing exposure to tail risks with other people’s money. It’s to avoid misalig

Banks are a specific situation where employees can get one-sided rewards for increasing exposure to tail risks with other people’s money. It’s to avoid misaligned incentives with delayed (by years) feedback.

humanrebar 3y ago
Engineers (or at least engineering firms) also get rewards for exposure to tail risks. As do many other professions. I'm not convinced bankers are special in that regard.
- schemester 3y ago
  How much more money do engineers or engineering firms make by designing dams that fail and boats that sink?
  - riffraff 3y ago
    I'm not sure how we can quantify it but we've had the car emissions scandal, the Boeing scandal, perhaps a self driving one.. It seems engineers screw up on purpose often enough that the monetary incentives must be there.
  - vjk800 3y ago
    Just look at the anti-consumer tactics used in the software industry and you have your answer.
  - ISL 3y ago
    Can be quite a bit -- the low bidder gets the job and gets paid. The higher bidder doesn't get paid and gets to continue looking for work.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Software engineers can make quite a bit at projects and companies that ultimately fail. Should we hold developers at uber criminally liable if the company fails? management? where does it stop?
    - UncleEntity 3y ago
      > Should we hold developers at uber criminally liable if the company fails? Apparently not even if they design a system for thwarting regulators from doing their job.
- eftychis 3y ago
  I think the OP argues -- and I agree -- that Engineers and their Managers -- especially their Managers, given how decision making works in the Bay Area, should be punished too. I don't see the issue: that is part of being an Engineer: lives and livelihood of people depend on your work "working." That is how it works in all Engineering fields. Somehow in software engineering we give the title and forget the responsibility. On the other hand, in a lot of jobs, engineers are overruled and treated as monkey typists, so... Example: At Boeing, Engineers were overruled on 737 Max, and passengers paid the price. Time someone pays for that, in this case FAA included. tl;dr: "Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop mattering," # Steve Jobs (note: Rubicon is VP for him) (See https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-the-difference-between-a-vice-president-and-a-janitor-2011-5?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-the-difference....) [Edit: P.S. Some of us gave a professional oath and take it pretty seriously. We should not hold our peers to lower standards.]
  - vjk800 3y ago
    On the other hand, engineers are ultimately the people who implement whatever the management wants to do, so if they absolutely refuse to do some shady shit, they can't be overruled. It's sort of the same as the question of whether soldiers should be held responsible for wars. There wouldn't be any wars if they all refused to fight. On the other hand, they are just carrying out orders. On a third hand, why the hell is "just carrying out orders" a good excuse for killing people? Why would anyone just "carry out the orders" without thinking about it themselves? Why should we be able to outsource our ethics? These are all questions that anarchists (the serious, intellectual variety), like to ask.
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    Software developers gave themselves the title of engineer, not licensing bodies

humanrebar 3y ago

Engineers (or at least engineering firms) also get rewards for exposure to tail risks. As do many other professions. I'm not convinced bankers are special in that regard.

schemester 3y ago
How much more money do engineers or engineering firms make by designing dams that fail and boats that sink?
- riffraff 3y ago
  I'm not sure how we can quantify it but we've had the car emissions scandal, the Boeing scandal, perhaps a self driving one.. It seems engineers screw up on purpose often enough that the monetary incentives must be there.
- vjk800 3y ago
  Just look at the anti-consumer tactics used in the software industry and you have your answer.
- ISL 3y ago
  Can be quite a bit -- the low bidder gets the job and gets paid. The higher bidder doesn't get paid and gets to continue looking for work.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Software engineers can make quite a bit at projects and companies that ultimately fail. Should we hold developers at uber criminally liable if the company fails? management? where does it stop?
  - UncleEntity 3y ago
    > Should we hold developers at uber criminally liable if the company fails? Apparently not even if they design a system for thwarting regulators from doing their job.
eftychis 3y ago
I think the OP argues -- and I agree -- that Engineers and their Managers -- especially their Managers, given how decision making works in the Bay Area, should be punished too. I don't see the issue: that is part of being an Engineer: lives and livelihood of people depend on your work "working." That is how it works in all Engineering fields. Somehow in software engineering we give the title and forget the responsibility. On the other hand, in a lot of jobs, engineers are overruled and treated as monkey typists, so... Example: At Boeing, Engineers were overruled on 737 Max, and passengers paid the price. Time someone pays for that, in this case FAA included. tl;dr: "Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop mattering," # Steve Jobs (note: Rubicon is VP for him) (See https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-the-difference-between-a-vice-president-and-a-janitor-2011-5?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-the-difference....) [Edit: P.S. Some of us gave a professional oath and take it pretty seriously. We should not hold our peers to lower standards.]
- vjk800 3y ago
  On the other hand, engineers are ultimately the people who implement whatever the management wants to do, so if they absolutely refuse to do some shady shit, they can't be overruled. It's sort of the same as the question of whether soldiers should be held responsible for wars. There wouldn't be any wars if they all refused to fight. On the other hand, they are just carrying out orders. On a third hand, why the hell is "just carrying out orders" a good excuse for killing people? Why would anyone just "carry out the orders" without thinking about it themselves? Why should we be able to outsource our ethics? These are all questions that anarchists (the serious, intellectual variety), like to ask.
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  Software developers gave themselves the title of engineer, not licensing bodies