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Free as in beer. Not free as in speech. > Is it Open Source? Datomic binaries are provided under the Apache 2 license which grants all the same rights to a wo

Free as in beer. Not free as in speech. > Is it Open Source? Datomic binaries are provided under the Apache 2 license which grants all the same rights to a work delivered in object form. Datomic will continue to be developed at Nubank, where it is a critical piece of our infrastructure.

simonw 3y ago
I find that answer confusing. I don't think I've ever seen binaries being licensed under Apache 2 without the relevant source code before.
- a2800276 3y ago
  Yeah, it's a complete bullshit move. Mongoose OS (an embedded iot Plattform not the db) does something similar. It's extremely weasely and doesn't instill trust at all.
  - frou_dh 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Pet_Ant 3y ago
      There is nothing wrong with saying "It is not open source but you can freely use the binaries". That is the same thing, but upfront about it, but this feels like open-source-washing.
      - a2800276 3y ago
        Nothing wrong with that at all. But that's not what was said. Answering the question (that you posed to yourself in your own FAQ): "Is it Open Source?" by stating: "we've licensed the binary using an Open Source license" seems a bit disingenuous. A more matter-of-factly answer would have been: "No".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - xpe 3y ago
    Trust is not the same for everyone. One model of trust is: A trusts B to do C. Nubank is releasing the binary permissively. You might want more, but this is not a breach of trust. Datomic has been around for more than 10 years, so there is ample data to base expectations.
- chii 3y ago
  It gives the licensee the ability to distribute the binary, use or include it in their products in the same way as an open-source product. It just merely prevents modification without decompiling (which i assume is not easy given it's clojure, not to mention obfuscation?). And presumably it makes it less likely someone would just produce a competing product if they should choose to re-monetize it?
  - sitkack 3y ago
    Why would it prevent modification or decompiling?
    - chii 3y ago
      Only due to difficulty, not by license.
- ingenieroariel 3y ago
  I saw Fabrice Bellard do it this year (MIT): The CPU version is released as binary code under the MIT license. The GPU version is commercial software. Please contact fabrice at bellard dot org for the exact terms. https://bellard.org/ts_server/ https://bellard.org/ts_server/
mqus 3y ago
> perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare Derivative Works of, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute the Work and such Derivative Works in Source or Object form. Doesn't this mean, that, as soon as I (somehow) get hold of the source code, I can distribute it as I want?
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Probably not, because the source is not a derivative. Having said that, if you decompile the binary I bet you could distribute that source.
  - cjbprime 3y ago
    "distribute the Work [..] in Source [..] form"
    - oh_sigh 3y ago
      I took that to mean the form provided by the authors - eg the "binary source"
    - stonemetal12 3y ago
      They didn't license the source form to you, so still no.
  - hlship 3y ago
    That would be very ugly source, as Datomic is written in Clojure and AOT compiled to Java bytecode. Due to the architecture of Clojure (especially, the use of macros) it is not exactly possible to work backwards from JVM bytecode to anything that looks like the original source code. It's not like Java where a clever decompiler can exploit output patterns generated by the Java compiler to make reasonable guesses at the structure of the source code. But this is all besides the point; Datomic is now free (as in beer) with a great license (Apache 2.0). You can use this amazing tool for free, and you have as much need to look at the source to do so as you might need to look at PostgreSQL's source. Some of us have been hoping for this day since Datomic was first announced, but even as an insider (I have been working at NuBank NA for less than a year) I was stunned at the speed with which this decision was made and implemented.
montroser 3y ago
So...no, it is not open source. I wish they would just answer that in a straightforward way. "No, the source is not available, and the product will continue to be developed by us, internally. However, binaries are provided..."
- wcerfgba 3y ago
  Yeah the answer in the page is a total meme. Kind of disappointing, since I like Datomic a piece of tech. :(
LukeEF 3y ago
There are already some open source alternatives to datomic. TerminusDB (https://github.com/terminusdb/terminusdb https://github.com/terminusdb/terminusdb) for example is implemented in prolog (and Rust) so has the datalog variant query power that makes datomic so powerful. If you want free as in speech (thou I love free beer).
- filoeleven 3y ago
  XTDB is also worth mentioning, especially since they’re on the HN front page with a v2 early access announcement. There are differences in how they do things. I can’t meaningfully comment on business usage of either or what the trade-offs between them are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35733515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35733515

simonw 3y ago

I find that answer confusing. I don't think I've ever seen binaries being licensed under Apache 2 without the relevant source code before.

a2800276 3y ago
Yeah, it's a complete bullshit move. Mongoose OS (an embedded iot Plattform not the db) does something similar. It's extremely weasely and doesn't instill trust at all.
- frou_dh 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Pet_Ant 3y ago
    There is nothing wrong with saying "It is not open source but you can freely use the binaries". That is the same thing, but upfront about it, but this feels like open-source-washing.
    - a2800276 3y ago
      Nothing wrong with that at all. But that's not what was said. Answering the question (that you posed to yourself in your own FAQ): "Is it Open Source?" by stating: "we've licensed the binary using an Open Source license" seems a bit disingenuous. A more matter-of-factly answer would have been: "No".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- xpe 3y ago
  Trust is not the same for everyone. One model of trust is: A trusts B to do C. Nubank is releasing the binary permissively. You might want more, but this is not a breach of trust. Datomic has been around for more than 10 years, so there is ample data to base expectations.
chii 3y ago
It gives the licensee the ability to distribute the binary, use or include it in their products in the same way as an open-source product. It just merely prevents modification without decompiling (which i assume is not easy given it's clojure, not to mention obfuscation?). And presumably it makes it less likely someone would just produce a competing product if they should choose to re-monetize it?
- sitkack 3y ago
  Why would it prevent modification or decompiling?
  - chii 3y ago
    Only due to difficulty, not by license.
ingenieroariel 3y ago
I saw Fabrice Bellard do it this year (MIT): The CPU version is released as binary code under the MIT license. The GPU version is commercial software. Please contact fabrice at bellard dot org for the exact terms. https://bellard.org/ts_server/ https://bellard.org/ts_server/

mqus 3y ago

> perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare Derivative Works of, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute the Work and such Derivative Works in Source or Object form. Doesn't this mean, that, as soon as I (somehow) get hold of the source code, I can distribute it as I want?

oh_sigh 3y ago
Probably not, because the source is not a derivative. Having said that, if you decompile the binary I bet you could distribute that source.
- cjbprime 3y ago
  "distribute the Work [..] in Source [..] form"
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    I took that to mean the form provided by the authors - eg the "binary source"
  - stonemetal12 3y ago
    They didn't license the source form to you, so still no.
- hlship 3y ago
  That would be very ugly source, as Datomic is written in Clojure and AOT compiled to Java bytecode. Due to the architecture of Clojure (especially, the use of macros) it is not exactly possible to work backwards from JVM bytecode to anything that looks like the original source code. It's not like Java where a clever decompiler can exploit output patterns generated by the Java compiler to make reasonable guesses at the structure of the source code. But this is all besides the point; Datomic is now free (as in beer) with a great license (Apache 2.0). You can use this amazing tool for free, and you have as much need to look at the source to do so as you might need to look at PostgreSQL's source. Some of us have been hoping for this day since Datomic was first announced, but even as an insider (I have been working at NuBank NA for less than a year) I was stunned at the speed with which this decision was made and implemented.

montroser 3y ago

So...no, it is not open source. I wish they would just answer that in a straightforward way. "No, the source is not available, and the product will continue to be developed by us, internally. However, binaries are provided..."

wcerfgba 3y ago
Yeah the answer in the page is a total meme. Kind of disappointing, since I like Datomic a piece of tech. :(

LukeEF 3y ago

There are already some open source alternatives to datomic. TerminusDB (https://github.com/terminusdb/terminusdb https://github.com/terminusdb/terminusdb) for example is implemented in prolog (and Rust) so has the datalog variant query power that makes datomic so powerful. If you want free as in speech (thou I love free beer).

filoeleven 3y ago
XTDB is also worth mentioning, especially since they’re on the HN front page with a v2 early access announcement. There are differences in how they do things. I can’t meaningfully comment on business usage of either or what the trade-offs between them are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35733515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35733515