5 ms·

Maybe a bit off topic but it's always strange when someone says "Islamic Golden Age" when talking about Iran. Nothing against a specific religion. It's like say

Maybe a bit off topic but it's always strange when someone says "Islamic Golden Age" when talking about Iran. Nothing against a specific religion. It's like saying Newton's work came during Christian Golden Age in Europe. The religion had nothing to do with it. In fact, there is a book [1] (in Persian) title "Two Centuries of Silence" that talks about the significant blow to Iran's culture, literature and science after Arab invasion [2] that it took two hundred years to somehow get back on track. [1] https://web.sas.upenn.edu/persian/2018/09/06/talk-two-centuries-of-silence-abdulhossein-zarrinkoub-and-the-formation-of-iranian-national-identity/ https://web.sas.upenn.edu/persian/2018/09/06/talk-two-centur... [2] Since I've mentioned this, I need to add that the focus of my statement is the nature of such "invasion" and not a certain ethnicity. No malicious intent here. If you are an Arab and reading this, hello neighbors! with love from Iran :)

BuffaloBagel 3y ago
I think Persians of that era would not make a distinction between religious and governmental rule.
- ybinator604g3 3y ago
  Could you please elaborate?
someotherperson 3y ago
Persian influence was incredibly important, in fact the Islamic Golden Age is marked by Persian customs being absorbed into daily living with the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate. So if you're feeling like it's taking value away from Persian history, instead, try to see it from the perspective that Persians are a large part of the reason why the Golden Age is even a thing :)
- ybinator604g3 3y ago
  The other day I was watching Neil deGrasse Tyson on Joe Rogan show and he was talking about Islamic Science and how Algebra, Astronomy, etc. come from Islam. I was baffled as an Iranian. I get that there is this anti muslim rhetoric lurking around and these people are trying to fight it. I assume they are well intentioned but in doing so they are doing the same thing that they advocate against. But I like your point of view.
  - agumonkey 3y ago
    Seems like a lot of reknowned arab thinkers were from the most eastern parts of the arab empire (aka persia). Al Kwarhizmi was born near what is current uzbekistan IIRC.
  - andrepd 3y ago
    Ah the famous historians Neil deGrasse Tyson and Joe Rogan... Better to head to /r/askhistorians with those kinds of questions.
    - mkoubaa 3y ago
      How dare they, the arrogant fools, talk to each other /s
      - andrepd 3y ago
        Surely I can also talk about aircraft design or Sanskrit, but nobody will pay attention or base their opinions on that, right?
- dendriti 3y ago
  It's difficult to separate Persian history from Islam during the Golden Age of Islam in Persia.
  - ybinator604g3 3y ago
    While intertwined, History and Religion are two different concepts. Of course one can differentiate between them.
    - erenyeager 3y ago
      The reason behind drawing such a distinction may be more telling, as there is a larger push in some groups to draw this distinction for the sake of harkening back to pre-Islamic Persia. But of course, modern Persia and Islam are intertwined, so usually those who wish to draw a distinction do so for political or religious bias reasons.
      - ybinator604g3 3y ago
        That's a pretty big assumption. It's natural to like your heritage and it's fine doing so while being respectful of other people's culture and heritage. I like other people to know about my culture for what it really was, what it went through and what it is right now. This is in contrast with how western media has tried to depict Iran as their political foe. Interestingly, Modern Persia and Islam (more with Islamic rulers) are at odds right now, evidenced by recent social movement and political unrest.
        Karrot_Kream 3y ago
        Right so you have a bit of an agenda here. You want to separate the scholarship. The problem is there really isn't enough historiographical work done here to meaningfully tease out the differences. Surviving primary sources often ended up in the hands of colonial governments which are loathe to open up access today or in the hands of estates of former colonial figures where they rot in a dark room somewhere. Another large historiographic gap in the Islamic world around this time was the lifestyle of peasants. We have records of kings and lords because of the widespread practice of autobiographies. We also know the thoughts of philosophers based on their texts. But we lack a lot of knowledge about how peasants and other commoners lived around the time. If you think about it, that's the majority of the people living at any time.
falaki 3y ago
100%. As I said in another thread, it took many centuries for the majority of the Persians to convert to Islam. Most of the population were not even Muslim during the "Islamic Golden Age." A good parallel is the Mughal Empire in India. The rulers where Muslim but the population was not.
behnamoh 3y ago
True. During the Golden Age, most Persian scholars and scientists had to write their books in Arabic to preserve them in libraries. Most Persians had to choose Arabic names. That's why when people see a Persian mathematician like this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi, they might think he was Arab. Fun fact: The word "Algorithm" comes from this guy's name!
- staplar 3y ago
  He wasn’t Persian. This is a daylight robbery from the people of Central Asia. Look at his last name. Khwarazm is in Central Asia and it has no ethnic Persians(ethnic Tajiks don’t count).
  - behnamoh 3y ago
    The Wikipedia page literally says he was Persian. Khwarazm was part of Persia at the time.
throwaw12 3y ago
> The religion had nothing to do with it. I would disagree with it. Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science, as the largest religion of that area (which not only included Iran, but many others), what would happen? Science would have been abolished, stopped immediately. Instead, Islam encouraged people to learn more science, even greek philosophers work was translated by hiring Christian people. On the other hand, economic and political prosperity after conquering many places helped people to calm down and focus on science, helping other people, coming up with solutions for different issues. I think Islam had direct impact to the science of that era.
- ybinator604g3 3y ago
  > Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science Are you suggesting the biggest contribution was not getting in the way? I wouldn't call it a contribution. > economic and political prosperity after conquering many places That happened despite the invasion, not because of it. Iran was well prosperous before that and the fall of Persian empires eventually cleared the way for a destructive Mongol invasion which Iranians had held back for a long time before.
  - oa335 3y ago
    An invasion in the 7th century paved the way for the Mongol invasions over 500 years later? That’s incredible reasoning.
- Nathanba 3y ago
  > Science would have been abolished, stopped immediately Most invaders in history did not violently impose their own philosphies and idealogies on day 1. Generally you let the conquered people keep their philosophy and religions to a big extent until the population has adopted it naturally through softer means, Islam specifically has a few verses around tolerance for "people of the book". Islam for example puts higher taxes on the non-muslims and people will then naturally gravitate towards Islam. Once the population has islamized to a higher percentage the islamic ideology will be implemented more deeply.
dredmorbius 3y ago
Applying labels is always fraught and involves compromises. "Islamic World" is well-established and generally recognised. It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. Peter Adamson, host of the History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps podcast and author of the book series from the same project, devotes roughlythe first 20 minutes of his Google Talk about Islamic Philosophy to the matter of why "Islamic World" is in fact the most useful term to use, in contrast to alternatives such as "Arabic" (obviously inapplicable to Persia), "Islam" (fails to acknowledge the role of non-muslim religions, including Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc.). <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=_NKi-XRZ4KI https://yewtu.be/watch?v=_NKi-XRZ4KI> As Adamson notes, it would be more accurate to call mediaeval European philosophy "Christian Philosophy" than to call the philosophical tradition of south-Western and south-Central Asia "Islamic Philosophy", as effectively all mediaeval European philosophers were Christian. Adamson also notes that philosophy of the Islamic World draws heavily on Greek and Roman philosophy (largely via the Byzantine empire) as well as Indian and African philosophical traditions. "Islamic" refers to not merely the religious foundation, but the greater cultural, political, legal (Islamic jurisprudence is a major factor and influence), etc., etc. As with many other contexts, "dominant influence" does not mean "exlusive" or even "majority", but "that which has the greatest overall impact in a specific area". (Cue numerous tedious HN discussions over questions of "monopoly" or geographic applicability of toponyms such as "Silicon Valley" (contrast "Hollywood" or "Bollywood").
- ybinator604g3 3y ago
  Thanks for the link. I watched the first 20 minutes and will watch the rest now. It's very interesting. A small note, popularity (being generally recognized) is not a good indicator of the validity of any view point and it certainly does not mean we cannot challenge them. > It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. I believe as an Iranian and a history enthusiast, what I expressed was one of those these nuances which is presumably being labeled as hot take, or am I mistaken and you referring to something from somewhere else? edit: fixed typo
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Adamson's work generally is excellent. I've been following the podcast for about 4--5 years now, and have worked through the entire mainline backlog (I'm now revisiting parts), though I'm still catching up on the Indian and Africana Philosophy track. Very highly recommended. "Islamic World" replaces several earlier-prevalent terms. Again, Adamson makes the case against several proposed alternatives. On which point, what specifically is yours?
whatever1 3y ago
Religions only tolerate progress when it does not interfere with their power. That why religions are cool with math. Now if you go to physics and biology, oh well depending on the age you were born there is some risk of losing your head.
- erenyeager 3y ago
  this is a quite Eurocentric take. In the Islamic world, the distinction was not initially science vs religion but the encroachment of philosophical rationalism on religious interpretation which was famously articulated by the Islamic scholar Al-Ghazali in his refutation of the Falasifa (called philosophers of that time but they differ from modern philosophers we mean today).
nashashmi 3y ago
The reason it is called the Islamic golden age is because of the Islamic empire that connected the innovations of the east to the west. Muslims themselves didn't directly have any contributions other than their philosophy and attitude unleashed from a reformed Arabian expansionism. The places they touched and the bridges they made changed everyone and all of history. The Renaissance of Europe is directly a result of the Islamic golden age. The vikings who conquered Italy sought to learn both Sicilian Arabic, and Italian causing a bridge between Europe and the middle east of North Africa.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
It's going off on a tangent, but Isaac Newton was quite intertwined with Christian religion: > In 1667, Newton became a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge,[11] making necessary his commitment to taking Holy Orders within seven years of completing his MA, which he did the following year. He was also required to take a vow of celibacy and recognize the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newto...
staplar 3y ago
Iran isn’t Persian only and that distinction needs to be always made. Persian as a language has been used by various people to do science and literature in, and same goes for Arabic, but they were majority neither Arabs nor Persian by ethnicity.
rramadass 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35698118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35698118
JeremyNT 3y ago
Well, think of it as a term of art and less a description of the ground truth. We can bike shed whether it's the best description, but it's what we have. Indeed, there are plenty of examples of similarly reductionist terms used throughout history. For example, until recently the western world marks the era of history in which we live as existing within the reign of our Lord, Jesus Christ [0]. We have now invented a backronym to work around this unpleasant detail, but we couldn't even get so far as to switch out the letters (so as to avoid upsetting people who we know are going to keep thinking in terms of "anno domini" regardless). There's also the related "Christendom" [1] term which was in broad usage. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom
sarimkhalid 3y ago
I find it strange when people deny basic well known history regarding this. In fact, post Islam, Persia was at the forefront in what is known as the "Islamic Golden Age". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Iran Books by the Oxford Historian Peter Frankopan are a great read if you want to learn more about this.

BuffaloBagel 3y ago

I think Persians of that era would not make a distinction between religious and governmental rule.

ybinator604g3 3y ago
Could you please elaborate?

someotherperson 3y ago

Persian influence was incredibly important, in fact the Islamic Golden Age is marked by Persian customs being absorbed into daily living with the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate. So if you're feeling like it's taking value away from Persian history, instead, try to see it from the perspective that Persians are a large part of the reason why the Golden Age is even a thing :)

ybinator604g3 3y ago
The other day I was watching Neil deGrasse Tyson on Joe Rogan show and he was talking about Islamic Science and how Algebra, Astronomy, etc. come from Islam. I was baffled as an Iranian. I get that there is this anti muslim rhetoric lurking around and these people are trying to fight it. I assume they are well intentioned but in doing so they are doing the same thing that they advocate against. But I like your point of view.
- agumonkey 3y ago
  Seems like a lot of reknowned arab thinkers were from the most eastern parts of the arab empire (aka persia). Al Kwarhizmi was born near what is current uzbekistan IIRC.
- andrepd 3y ago
  Ah the famous historians Neil deGrasse Tyson and Joe Rogan... Better to head to /r/askhistorians with those kinds of questions.
  - mkoubaa 3y ago
    How dare they, the arrogant fools, talk to each other /s
    - andrepd 3y ago
      Surely I can also talk about aircraft design or Sanskrit, but nobody will pay attention or base their opinions on that, right?
dendriti 3y ago
It's difficult to separate Persian history from Islam during the Golden Age of Islam in Persia.
- ybinator604g3 3y ago
  While intertwined, History and Religion are two different concepts. Of course one can differentiate between them.
  - erenyeager 3y ago
    The reason behind drawing such a distinction may be more telling, as there is a larger push in some groups to draw this distinction for the sake of harkening back to pre-Islamic Persia. But of course, modern Persia and Islam are intertwined, so usually those who wish to draw a distinction do so for political or religious bias reasons.
    - ybinator604g3 3y ago
      That's a pretty big assumption. It's natural to like your heritage and it's fine doing so while being respectful of other people's culture and heritage. I like other people to know about my culture for what it really was, what it went through and what it is right now. This is in contrast with how western media has tried to depict Iran as their political foe. Interestingly, Modern Persia and Islam (more with Islamic rulers) are at odds right now, evidenced by recent social movement and political unrest.
      - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
        Right so you have a bit of an agenda here. You want to separate the scholarship. The problem is there really isn't enough historiographical work done here to meaningfully tease out the differences. Surviving primary sources often ended up in the hands of colonial governments which are loathe to open up access today or in the hands of estates of former colonial figures where they rot in a dark room somewhere. Another large historiographic gap in the Islamic world around this time was the lifestyle of peasants. We have records of kings and lords because of the widespread practice of autobiographies. We also know the thoughts of philosophers based on their texts. But we lack a lot of knowledge about how peasants and other commoners lived around the time. If you think about it, that's the majority of the people living at any time.

falaki 3y ago

100%. As I said in another thread, it took many centuries for the majority of the Persians to convert to Islam. Most of the population were not even Muslim during the "Islamic Golden Age." A good parallel is the Mughal Empire in India. The rulers where Muslim but the population was not.

behnamoh 3y ago

True. During the Golden Age, most Persian scholars and scientists had to write their books in Arabic to preserve them in libraries. Most Persians had to choose Arabic names. That's why when people see a Persian mathematician like this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi, they might think he was Arab. Fun fact: The word "Algorithm" comes from this guy's name!

staplar 3y ago
He wasn’t Persian. This is a daylight robbery from the people of Central Asia. Look at his last name. Khwarazm is in Central Asia and it has no ethnic Persians(ethnic Tajiks don’t count).
- behnamoh 3y ago
  The Wikipedia page literally says he was Persian. Khwarazm was part of Persia at the time.

throwaw12 3y ago

> The religion had nothing to do with it. I would disagree with it. Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science, as the largest religion of that area (which not only included Iran, but many others), what would happen? Science would have been abolished, stopped immediately. Instead, Islam encouraged people to learn more science, even greek philosophers work was translated by hiring Christian people. On the other hand, economic and political prosperity after conquering many places helped people to calm down and focus on science, helping other people, coming up with solutions for different issues. I think Islam had direct impact to the science of that era.

ybinator604g3 3y ago
> Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science Are you suggesting the biggest contribution was not getting in the way? I wouldn't call it a contribution. > economic and political prosperity after conquering many places That happened despite the invasion, not because of it. Iran was well prosperous before that and the fall of Persian empires eventually cleared the way for a destructive Mongol invasion which Iranians had held back for a long time before.
- oa335 3y ago
  An invasion in the 7th century paved the way for the Mongol invasions over 500 years later? That’s incredible reasoning.
Nathanba 3y ago
> Science would have been abolished, stopped immediately Most invaders in history did not violently impose their own philosphies and idealogies on day 1. Generally you let the conquered people keep their philosophy and religions to a big extent until the population has adopted it naturally through softer means, Islam specifically has a few verses around tolerance for "people of the book". Islam for example puts higher taxes on the non-muslims and people will then naturally gravitate towards Islam. Once the population has islamized to a higher percentage the islamic ideology will be implemented more deeply.

dredmorbius 3y ago

Applying labels is always fraught and involves compromises. "Islamic World" is well-established and generally recognised. It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. Peter Adamson, host of the History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps podcast and author of the book series from the same project, devotes roughlythe first 20 minutes of his Google Talk about Islamic Philosophy to the matter of why "Islamic World" is in fact the most useful term to use, in contrast to alternatives such as "Arabic" (obviously inapplicable to Persia), "Islam" (fails to acknowledge the role of non-muslim religions, including Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc.). <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=_NKi-XRZ4KI https://yewtu.be/watch?v=_NKi-XRZ4KI> As Adamson notes, it would be more accurate to call mediaeval European philosophy "Christian Philosophy" than to call the philosophical tradition of south-Western and south-Central Asia "Islamic Philosophy", as effectively all mediaeval European philosophers were Christian. Adamson also notes that philosophy of the Islamic World draws heavily on Greek and Roman philosophy (largely via the Byzantine empire) as well as Indian and African philosophical traditions. "Islamic" refers to not merely the religious foundation, but the greater cultural, political, legal (Islamic jurisprudence is a major factor and influence), etc., etc. As with many other contexts, "dominant influence" does not mean "exlusive" or even "majority", but "that which has the greatest overall impact in a specific area". (Cue numerous tedious HN discussions over questions of "monopoly" or geographic applicability of toponyms such as "Silicon Valley" (contrast "Hollywood" or "Bollywood").

ybinator604g3 3y ago
Thanks for the link. I watched the first 20 minutes and will watch the rest now. It's very interesting. A small note, popularity (being generally recognized) is not a good indicator of the validity of any view point and it certainly does not mean we cannot challenge them. > It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest. I believe as an Iranian and a history enthusiast, what I expressed was one of those these nuances which is presumably being labeled as hot take, or am I mistaken and you referring to something from somewhere else? edit: fixed typo
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Adamson's work generally is excellent. I've been following the podcast for about 4--5 years now, and have worked through the entire mainline backlog (I'm now revisiting parts), though I'm still catching up on the Indian and Africana Philosophy track. Very highly recommended. "Islamic World" replaces several earlier-prevalent terms. Again, Adamson makes the case against several proposed alternatives. On which point, what specifically is yours?

whatever1 3y ago

Religions only tolerate progress when it does not interfere with their power. That why religions are cool with math. Now if you go to physics and biology, oh well depending on the age you were born there is some risk of losing your head.

erenyeager 3y ago
this is a quite Eurocentric take. In the Islamic world, the distinction was not initially science vs religion but the encroachment of philosophical rationalism on religious interpretation which was famously articulated by the Islamic scholar Al-Ghazali in his refutation of the Falasifa (called philosophers of that time but they differ from modern philosophers we mean today).

nashashmi 3y ago

The reason it is called the Islamic golden age is because of the Islamic empire that connected the innovations of the east to the west. Muslims themselves didn't directly have any contributions other than their philosophy and attitude unleashed from a reformed Arabian expansionism. The places they touched and the bridges they made changed everyone and all of history. The Renaissance of Europe is directly a result of the Islamic golden age. The vikings who conquered Italy sought to learn both Sicilian Arabic, and Italian causing a bridge between Europe and the middle east of North Africa.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

It's going off on a tangent, but Isaac Newton was quite intertwined with Christian religion: > In 1667, Newton became a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge,[11] making necessary his commitment to taking Holy Orders within seven years of completing his MA, which he did the following year. He was also required to take a vow of celibacy and recognize the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newto...

staplar 3y ago

Iran isn’t Persian only and that distinction needs to be always made. Persian as a language has been used by various people to do science and literature in, and same goes for Arabic, but they were majority neither Arabs nor Persian by ethnicity.

rramadass 3y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35698118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35698118

JeremyNT 3y ago

Well, think of it as a term of art and less a description of the ground truth. We can bike shed whether it's the best description, but it's what we have. Indeed, there are plenty of examples of similarly reductionist terms used throughout history. For example, until recently the western world marks the era of history in which we live as existing within the reign of our Lord, Jesus Christ [0]. We have now invented a backronym to work around this unpleasant detail, but we couldn't even get so far as to switch out the letters (so as to avoid upsetting people who we know are going to keep thinking in terms of "anno domini" regardless). There's also the related "Christendom" [1] term which was in broad usage. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom

sarimkhalid 3y ago

I find it strange when people deny basic well known history regarding this. In fact, post Islam, Persia was at the forefront in what is known as the "Islamic Golden Age". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Iran Books by the Oxford Historian Peter Frankopan are a great read if you want to learn more about this.