17 ms·

Usb-c sounds cool for now. But what about when a new port comes out and Apple can’t use it because the EU still mandates to use the old one?

herbstein 3y ago
You mean like when everyone moved from mini-USB to USB-C? It's also good to remember that lightning connectors are USB2 in a different form factor - outdated and slow.
- candiodari 3y ago
  Oh you're giving lightning connectors too little credit. They also come with a LOT of logic to prevent people from charging their Apple devices with unapproved chargers. All added on top of USB 2 (and definitely against the standard, one might add) Like a lot of Apple and huge company stuff in general, it's a flimsy reason to change something and introduce many limitations the huge company thinks will make them more money. It sure as hell is not about reversible connectors.
  - evilduck 3y ago
    What? I've plugged lightning cables into pretty much any imaginable sort of USB-A socket over than last decade and have never encountered one that wouldn't supply a charge specifically to a lightning cable. Please, be specific with what limitations you're referring to because this is counter to all evidence I've ever been witness to.
    - candiodari 3y ago
      They supply a charge fine, but no standards-based fast charging.
      - illiarian 3y ago
        What you mean to say is: USB Power Delivery as a standard didn't even appear until after Lightning was launched. Any fast charging didn't appear until USB-C specs that only became finalized in 2014. And Lightning has been charging my iPhones pretty fast
        mrguyorama 3y ago
        There have been many fast charging standards that are available on way cheaper chargers that apple just ignored. It's not that big a deal, but it did force apple consumers to buy expensive "official" chargers to actually charger quickly.
        illiarian 3y ago
        > There have been many fast charging standards "Many different standards" means "no standard". > that apple just ignored. Apple ignored them because none of them were standards until very, very late
      - evilduck 3y ago
        Oh, so you're moving the goal posts to avoid discussing your lie. Got it. But please, reference a USB2 or USB3 standard over a type A connection that enables fast charging too. This will be fun.
      - dwaite 3y ago
        They support Power Delivery 2 and higher just fine. I believe the new phones will use 3.0 PPS as well to more aggressively tune for charging speed vs heat. USB Power Delivery 1 was a disaster, launched years after Apple had moved beyond 7.5W charging. Android phones typically also ignored it, using Qualcomm's proprietary charging tech. If you want fast charging, use the bundled USB-C cable to charge your iPhone rather than the USB-A ones from years ago. To flip it around, what advantage do you think one gets with official Apple iPhone chargers? Do you know of any evidence that Apple promotes their chargers working better than others? And if none exists, why would they sabotage customers who were never educated that hypothetically only Apple chargers charge fast?
        candiodari 3y ago
        Actually having just tested, I have a bunch of "aftermarket" lightning cables, and a few of them some of my iPads (I think the more recent ones) and most of my iPhones refuse to charge. Like at all. So not fast charging, charging at all. They work on some of the iPads, so they do work. Why do the phones refuse to charge then? Not fast charging, which I can sort of understand, charging at all.
- dahfizz 3y ago
  There wasn't a law mandating the use of the old micro-B port. The EU issued a memorandum asking companies nicely to use micro-B, but obviously it wasn't enforced (Apple never complied). This situation is different. Apple and others are completely unable to upgrade to USB-D when it comes around.
  - crote 3y ago
    No, they are not. They will be able to use USB-D in parallel with USB-C until USB-D becomes industry standard, at which point it will be adopted by the EU as the new mandatory standard port.
    - lttlrck 3y ago
      And during that transition, exactly like now with the Lightning to USB-C transition there will be a lot of e-waste generated... unless the connector is identical
tiedieconderoga 3y ago
They add another common standard, probably allowing manufacturers to choose between "old" and "new" for a little while. Similar to the switch from microUSB-B to USB-C. Budget phones kept using the cheap option for awhile, but eventually costs came down and people settled into the new standard. Not sure how it's done in the EU, but their legislature could delegate authority to make such decisions to an executive agency if the process of passing an amendment or new law is too slow.
- roblabla 3y ago
  > Not sure how it's done in the EU That's how it's done, is my understanding. The actual articles of the "usb-c" law[0] doesn't even mention usb-c. Here's what Article 1 states: > With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged by means of wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts [...] in order to ensure a minimum common interoperability between radio equipment and its charging devices, as well as to improve consumer convenience, to reduce environmental waste and to avoid market fragmentation, by: > (a) modifying, adding or removing categories or classes of radio equipment; > (b) modifying, adding or removing technical specifications, including references and descriptions, in relation to the charging receptacle(s) and charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class of radio equipment concerned. > [...] > The Commission shall submit a report on the assessment referred to in the third subparagraph to the European Parliament and to the Council, for the first time by 28 December 2025 and every 5 years thereafter, and shall adopt delegated acts pursuant to the second subparagraph, point (a), accordingly. So the Commission (which is part of Europe's executive branch) can enact delegated acts to add new technical specifications for wired charging. USB-C is not "hardcoded in law". What's hardcoded in law is the Commission's authority to mandate the use of certain ports. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022L2380#d1e304-30-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
- dagorenouf 3y ago
  I don’t know why everybody trusts government bodies to act fast and delegate authority as needed when it’s clearly not how things happen in the real world. The nature of government is to be slow, safe and long-term, not enable technological disruption. For example the cookie law has made most websites significantly less enjoyable and everybody hates it and yet it has been stuck for years, no hope of improvement in sight.
xenadu02 3y ago
There will never be another one. Who would put R&D into something the EU might not approve?
- iSnow 3y ago
  The next one is actually already on the horizon and it's called Qi2
- layer8 3y ago
  USB-C is only mandatory for specific classes of devices. Presumably, if some new technology would have a good chance to provide a substantial improvement, it would also make sense to develop it for other devices. In addition, it’s possible to develop compatible extensions to USB-C, meaning technical progress isn’t “frozen” at the current USB-C version.
DannyBee 3y ago
Ah yes, that magic new port that dose something we can't do, but nobody can pinpoint what it is or why we need it. It's been a decade since a new port (lightning was 2012, usb-c is 2014). So apparently, they are doing pretty well! I think my answer here would "enjoy the next decade of benefits and worry about it then?"
- nickpp 3y ago
  USB-C itself was that "magic" new port 10 years ago. EU at the time was recommending standardization on the abomination that was micro-USB. Luckily they didn’t make alternatives illegal, like now, or you’d never have seen your much beloved USB-C.
  - selfmodruntime 3y ago
    Instead of mandating the standard to be used, they should've mandated that phone vendors agree on one standard, with a revision every x years or so.
    - crote 3y ago
      Luckily, that is exactly what happened! The law explicitly states that it will be reviewed every few years to determine whether USB-C is still the best choice.
      - nickpp 3y ago
        And why would a better choice magically appear though when it’s illegal to put it on the market to let it prove itself? Why would anybody who is actually innovative pay to research and risk such a better choice in the first place? To wait for its review in a few years?!
        heavyset_go 3y ago
        This is indeed what literally happens in tons of sectors where standards are adopted or mandated by law.
wiseowise 3y ago
The issue with lightning is not that it is old, but because it is available only on Apple devices.
johndisko 3y ago
Here's a crazy idea. USB-C can coexist with the new port until the new port proves its worth standardizing to the same degree (as USB-C). But somehow we have decided that small computers (aka phones) must only have 1 port.
- illiarian 3y ago
  > But somehow we have decided that small computers (aka phones) must only have 1 port. Because, you guessed it, they are small. And any port you add requires a not insignificant amount of space
leoh 3y ago
Good point. Laws are immutable and can never be changed.
- least 3y ago
  It doesn't really matter if laws can or can't be changed, the question is whether or not regulations imposing a standard on manufacturers on what kind of connector they put on their phone should exist at all.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Yeah, they could just impose additional tax for nonstandard phones, like +30% the price. This way if a company really wants a fancy port, they technically can do this, but likely will loose market share because of a big price compared to companies that follow standards
adam_arthur 3y ago
Then industry players would build consensus around a new standard and adopt that into law? Would you prefer a world where browser vendors are all designing their own HTML and JS features independently rather than working off a common spec too? At a certain scale of adoption/societal impact, having a common set of agreed standards is much more important than fragmented "innovation". I would argue having a general and common way to charge devices qualifies for that level of importance. The incentive on Apple's side to stay off of USB-C can only be one of profit driven customer hostile design... as there's really zero technical or otherwise reason to have stayed on lightning this long. One of the biggest annoyances in my daily life is having to swap back and forth between USB-C and lightning cables. These lightning cables being sold today are effectively trash to be thrown away in a year or two. Completely unnecessary, and hard to have any respect for the intelligence of people who defend it. There is no slippery slope here. If Apple wants to build a next gen port, then they do it alongside other industry players rather than monopolizing the technology so they can charge 10x markup on cables/accessories/licensing... which imparts zero benefit to the consumer.
- lttlrck 3y ago
  That exact same waste/annoyance is going to happen during the USB-C to USB-next transition. And as it is it seems extremely unlikely that Apple wasn't already planning Lightning for iPhone...
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    I would agree, but i really don't know if this happens. top usbc can endure 120-240W and 40gigabits/s and I am not sure we've even hit the limits, some Chinese brands had mock phones with abnormal charging speeds (at least I'm about sure 120w). Like I can't imagine what new features some port could bring, that we'll want in a phone that fits in our pockets. The only thing changin imo is maybe a new fancy more durable form factor, but I can't say usb-c is that bad in this direction
- zamnos 3y ago
  Lightning is a better physical connection than USB-C for phones. It's still reversible, but more importantly, it's more durable as there isn't a tongue inside to get broken. Before you reply saying that you've broken a lighting port, read carefully - I'm not claiming they're indestructible, just more resilient to needing to be cleaned out. If you work near metal and dirt or even just missoportune bits of fluff, they'll get stuck inside the port. Solution is to take a paperclip and jam it in and try pulling out the metal shavings or other foreign debris. USB-C's internal tongue is too breakable and in-the-way. Now, not everybody works in or near a metal shop or a saw mill, but all the people I know with phones wear clothes, which sometimes has lint, especially in pockets where phones are kept, and so aren't totally immune from this problem. Thankfully there's wireless charging, and it's decently powerful/quick these days, so the whole port can be taped off - when you remember before you go into the workshop, which hopefully is every time.

herbstein 3y ago

You mean like when everyone moved from mini-USB to USB-C? It's also good to remember that lightning connectors are USB2 in a different form factor - outdated and slow.

candiodari 3y ago
Oh you're giving lightning connectors too little credit. They also come with a LOT of logic to prevent people from charging their Apple devices with unapproved chargers. All added on top of USB 2 (and definitely against the standard, one might add) Like a lot of Apple and huge company stuff in general, it's a flimsy reason to change something and introduce many limitations the huge company thinks will make them more money. It sure as hell is not about reversible connectors.
- evilduck 3y ago
  What? I've plugged lightning cables into pretty much any imaginable sort of USB-A socket over than last decade and have never encountered one that wouldn't supply a charge specifically to a lightning cable. Please, be specific with what limitations you're referring to because this is counter to all evidence I've ever been witness to.
  - candiodari 3y ago
    They supply a charge fine, but no standards-based fast charging.
    - illiarian 3y ago
      What you mean to say is: USB Power Delivery as a standard didn't even appear until after Lightning was launched. Any fast charging didn't appear until USB-C specs that only became finalized in 2014. And Lightning has been charging my iPhones pretty fast
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        There have been many fast charging standards that are available on way cheaper chargers that apple just ignored. It's not that big a deal, but it did force apple consumers to buy expensive "official" chargers to actually charger quickly.
        illiarian 3y ago
        > There have been many fast charging standards "Many different standards" means "no standard". > that apple just ignored. Apple ignored them because none of them were standards until very, very late
    - evilduck 3y ago
      Oh, so you're moving the goal posts to avoid discussing your lie. Got it. But please, reference a USB2 or USB3 standard over a type A connection that enables fast charging too. This will be fun.
    - dwaite 3y ago
      They support Power Delivery 2 and higher just fine. I believe the new phones will use 3.0 PPS as well to more aggressively tune for charging speed vs heat. USB Power Delivery 1 was a disaster, launched years after Apple had moved beyond 7.5W charging. Android phones typically also ignored it, using Qualcomm's proprietary charging tech. If you want fast charging, use the bundled USB-C cable to charge your iPhone rather than the USB-A ones from years ago. To flip it around, what advantage do you think one gets with official Apple iPhone chargers? Do you know of any evidence that Apple promotes their chargers working better than others? And if none exists, why would they sabotage customers who were never educated that hypothetically only Apple chargers charge fast?
      - candiodari 3y ago
        Actually having just tested, I have a bunch of "aftermarket" lightning cables, and a few of them some of my iPads (I think the more recent ones) and most of my iPhones refuse to charge. Like at all. So not fast charging, charging at all. They work on some of the iPads, so they do work. Why do the phones refuse to charge then? Not fast charging, which I can sort of understand, charging at all.
dahfizz 3y ago
There wasn't a law mandating the use of the old micro-B port. The EU issued a memorandum asking companies nicely to use micro-B, but obviously it wasn't enforced (Apple never complied). This situation is different. Apple and others are completely unable to upgrade to USB-D when it comes around.
- crote 3y ago
  No, they are not. They will be able to use USB-D in parallel with USB-C until USB-D becomes industry standard, at which point it will be adopted by the EU as the new mandatory standard port.
  - lttlrck 3y ago
    And during that transition, exactly like now with the Lightning to USB-C transition there will be a lot of e-waste generated... unless the connector is identical

tiedieconderoga 3y ago

They add another common standard, probably allowing manufacturers to choose between "old" and "new" for a little while. Similar to the switch from microUSB-B to USB-C. Budget phones kept using the cheap option for awhile, but eventually costs came down and people settled into the new standard. Not sure how it's done in the EU, but their legislature could delegate authority to make such decisions to an executive agency if the process of passing an amendment or new law is too slow.

roblabla 3y ago
> Not sure how it's done in the EU That's how it's done, is my understanding. The actual articles of the "usb-c" law[0] doesn't even mention usb-c. Here's what Article 1 states: > With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged by means of wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts [...] in order to ensure a minimum common interoperability between radio equipment and its charging devices, as well as to improve consumer convenience, to reduce environmental waste and to avoid market fragmentation, by: > (a) modifying, adding or removing categories or classes of radio equipment; > (b) modifying, adding or removing technical specifications, including references and descriptions, in relation to the charging receptacle(s) and charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class of radio equipment concerned. > [...] > The Commission shall submit a report on the assessment referred to in the third subparagraph to the European Parliament and to the Council, for the first time by 28 December 2025 and every 5 years thereafter, and shall adopt delegated acts pursuant to the second subparagraph, point (a), accordingly. So the Commission (which is part of Europe's executive branch) can enact delegated acts to add new technical specifications for wired charging. USB-C is not "hardcoded in law". What's hardcoded in law is the Commission's authority to mandate the use of certain ports. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022L2380#d1e304-30-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
dagorenouf 3y ago
I don’t know why everybody trusts government bodies to act fast and delegate authority as needed when it’s clearly not how things happen in the real world. The nature of government is to be slow, safe and long-term, not enable technological disruption. For example the cookie law has made most websites significantly less enjoyable and everybody hates it and yet it has been stuck for years, no hope of improvement in sight.

xenadu02 3y ago

There will never be another one. Who would put R&D into something the EU might not approve?

iSnow 3y ago
The next one is actually already on the horizon and it's called Qi2
layer8 3y ago
USB-C is only mandatory for specific classes of devices. Presumably, if some new technology would have a good chance to provide a substantial improvement, it would also make sense to develop it for other devices. In addition, it’s possible to develop compatible extensions to USB-C, meaning technical progress isn’t “frozen” at the current USB-C version.

DannyBee 3y ago

Ah yes, that magic new port that dose something we can't do, but nobody can pinpoint what it is or why we need it. It's been a decade since a new port (lightning was 2012, usb-c is 2014). So apparently, they are doing pretty well! I think my answer here would "enjoy the next decade of benefits and worry about it then?"

nickpp 3y ago
USB-C itself was that "magic" new port 10 years ago. EU at the time was recommending standardization on the abomination that was micro-USB. Luckily they didn’t make alternatives illegal, like now, or you’d never have seen your much beloved USB-C.
- selfmodruntime 3y ago
  Instead of mandating the standard to be used, they should've mandated that phone vendors agree on one standard, with a revision every x years or so.
  - crote 3y ago
    Luckily, that is exactly what happened! The law explicitly states that it will be reviewed every few years to determine whether USB-C is still the best choice.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      And why would a better choice magically appear though when it’s illegal to put it on the market to let it prove itself? Why would anybody who is actually innovative pay to research and risk such a better choice in the first place? To wait for its review in a few years?!
      - heavyset_go 3y ago
        This is indeed what literally happens in tons of sectors where standards are adopted or mandated by law.

wiseowise 3y ago

The issue with lightning is not that it is old, but because it is available only on Apple devices.

johndisko 3y ago

Here's a crazy idea. USB-C can coexist with the new port until the new port proves its worth standardizing to the same degree (as USB-C). But somehow we have decided that small computers (aka phones) must only have 1 port.

illiarian 3y ago
> But somehow we have decided that small computers (aka phones) must only have 1 port. Because, you guessed it, they are small. And any port you add requires a not insignificant amount of space

leoh 3y ago

Good point. Laws are immutable and can never be changed.

least 3y ago
It doesn't really matter if laws can or can't be changed, the question is whether or not regulations imposing a standard on manufacturers on what kind of connector they put on their phone should exist at all.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Yeah, they could just impose additional tax for nonstandard phones, like +30% the price. This way if a company really wants a fancy port, they technically can do this, but likely will loose market share because of a big price compared to companies that follow standards

adam_arthur 3y ago

Then industry players would build consensus around a new standard and adopt that into law? Would you prefer a world where browser vendors are all designing their own HTML and JS features independently rather than working off a common spec too? At a certain scale of adoption/societal impact, having a common set of agreed standards is much more important than fragmented "innovation". I would argue having a general and common way to charge devices qualifies for that level of importance. The incentive on Apple's side to stay off of USB-C can only be one of profit driven customer hostile design... as there's really zero technical or otherwise reason to have stayed on lightning this long. One of the biggest annoyances in my daily life is having to swap back and forth between USB-C and lightning cables. These lightning cables being sold today are effectively trash to be thrown away in a year or two. Completely unnecessary, and hard to have any respect for the intelligence of people who defend it. There is no slippery slope here. If Apple wants to build a next gen port, then they do it alongside other industry players rather than monopolizing the technology so they can charge 10x markup on cables/accessories/licensing... which imparts zero benefit to the consumer.

lttlrck 3y ago
That exact same waste/annoyance is going to happen during the USB-C to USB-next transition. And as it is it seems extremely unlikely that Apple wasn't already planning Lightning for iPhone...
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  I would agree, but i really don't know if this happens. top usbc can endure 120-240W and 40gigabits/s and I am not sure we've even hit the limits, some Chinese brands had mock phones with abnormal charging speeds (at least I'm about sure 120w). Like I can't imagine what new features some port could bring, that we'll want in a phone that fits in our pockets. The only thing changin imo is maybe a new fancy more durable form factor, but I can't say usb-c is that bad in this direction
zamnos 3y ago
Lightning is a better physical connection than USB-C for phones. It's still reversible, but more importantly, it's more durable as there isn't a tongue inside to get broken. Before you reply saying that you've broken a lighting port, read carefully - I'm not claiming they're indestructible, just more resilient to needing to be cleaned out. If you work near metal and dirt or even just missoportune bits of fluff, they'll get stuck inside the port. Solution is to take a paperclip and jam it in and try pulling out the metal shavings or other foreign debris. USB-C's internal tongue is too breakable and in-the-way. Now, not everybody works in or near a metal shop or a saw mill, but all the people I know with phones wear clothes, which sometimes has lint, especially in pockets where phones are kept, and so aren't totally immune from this problem. Thankfully there's wireless charging, and it's decently powerful/quick these days, so the whole port can be taped off - when you remember before you go into the workshop, which hopefully is every time.