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Many seem to not realize that privacy is not about having something to hide (I guess that would be secrecy), but about the right to keep things to yourself. Tho

Many seem to not realize that privacy is not about having something to hide (I guess that would be secrecy), but about the right to keep things to yourself. Those are two different concepts.

StingyJelly 3y ago
Exactly! The best way someone put it - right to choose what to share and who to share it with.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  The best analogy for this I've seen is this: it's no secret that everybody poops. But that doesn't mean everyone likes having other people watch while they do it (privacy).
  - sporkl 3y ago
    I've tried using this in an argument and gotten a response along the lines of "I don't mind if people watch me poop."
    - sixstringtheory 3y ago
      Well I'd say they're full of shit, haha. Most people have something they care about; them refuting a specific case doesn't refute the general concept. They're either arguing in bad faith or are not very good at thinking logically. If they truly have no ethical or moral boundaries, then they are probably deviant enough that they won't be able to get into a position to set much policy, anyways, by definition of their lack of fitness to represent the majority of any population.
      - boneitis 3y ago
        Right. I don't "mind" being seen pooping, per se. You go ahead and zen out and, in turn, take those things with grace by going along with it when someone raises a fuss ("oh, I am soooo humiliated! :)"). Or if you're of another archetype, you'll find witty ways to playfully snap back and turn it around on people trying to clown on you (alas, I'm not of this type/talent). Moreover, there are the countless, other not-uncommon approaches that often lead to escalation/hostility/violence. Then it becomes a drag (and where the issue lies) when it really catches on in wildfire manner, to where it will have practically problematic effects on you personally or professionally, not unlike the lie that makes it halfway 'round the world before the truth can put its pants on. As far as I see it, all of that is what is trying to be highlighted with the pooping witness analogy. Of course, that should probably be underscored when presenting it. You'll probably still get a "yeah, that's fine" or "I don't care what anyone else thinks" after you elaborate. And tons of other cans of worms can reasonably be opened as topical offshoots; I'm just trying to concur that the "I don't mind" response doesn't really feel like a response.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      Assuming they're adults, offer to set up a camera feed in their bathroom and stream it. They don't mind, and you'd do the work, so it'd be no problem for them and a very specific type of audience would love it. They could likely even earn a bit of money doing it so it's win/win! Maybe some people even think they believe it when they say it, but I've yet to see anyone who is willing to demonstrate it when pressed, and I've even met a few people who have claimed that they have no concerns at all about their privacy, but who then ended up feeling violated when even small things they assumed were private ended up being exposed.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      At that point you can either call them a pervert and weirdo, or you can ask to film then while they poop and upload it to YouTube with their name attached.
- trinsic2 3y ago
  I like this. I added my own parts to clarify and solidify my stance. "Unless I have created a harm, I have a right to choose what to share and who to share it with. I have no interest in the "suspected guilty until proven innocent" mantra.""
sroussey 3y ago
If you have nothing to hide, then publish it all for the world to see.
louloulou 3y ago
"Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age. Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world." -- excerpt from A Cypherpunk's Manifesto, Eric Hughes, March 9, 1993
- imoverclocked 3y ago
  > March 9, 1993 It's funny (not haha-funny) how political policy in 2023 is still trying to catch up to morality understood 30 years ago. I remember being annoyed at newscasters abusing the term "hackers" in the late 90s and extremely broad definitions of "hacking" being applied in court-rulings. It must still be really difficult to comprehend tech and the consequences of these kinds of policies for policy makers. Either that or policy makers really are maleficent towards life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
  - DocTomoe 3y ago
    Oh, politics understands that alright, don't you worry about that. Politicians are the enemies of privacy for the masses, because a transparent population is a population that is easier controlled and manipulated. That's also why terms are being used deliberately incorrectly, to move legitimate positions nearer to criminal activity. Just ask anyone interested in hobbyist chemistry.
    - whydoyoucare 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - andrekandre 3y ago
        > That way build sympathy for the law-breakers how do you build sympathy for law-breakers...? i'm having a hard time understating...
teaearlgraycold 3y ago
There’s a reason we don’t mandate government cameras inside our homes. No one wants that. But in a world where everyone needs a computer, we shouldn’t take advantage of that obligation by turning our computers into surveillance devices.
hanniabu 3y ago
Reminder that the same applies to use of crypto. Just because it's use for some illegal activity (it's actually less % than fiat), doesn't mean it should be made illegal as I've seen some comments here advocating for in the past.
- govolckurself 3y ago
  If you mean cryptocurrency, then that's wrong, because its primary purpose is to facilitate illegal activity, or grifting. It isn't even good as money, and I still can't buy groceries with Bitcoin, which is like... one of the things money needs to do (buy food).
  - hanniabu 3y ago
    You're taking the term cryptocurrency too literally
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
Privacy is wearing clothes. You should almost never be forced to nude up.

Many seem to not realize that privacy is not about having something to hide (I guess that would be secrecy), but about the right to keep things to yourself. Those are two different concepts.

StingyJelly 3y ago

Exactly! The best way someone put it - right to choose what to share and who to share it with.

sixstringtheory 3y ago
The best analogy for this I've seen is this: it's no secret that everybody poops. But that doesn't mean everyone likes having other people watch while they do it (privacy).
- sporkl 3y ago
  I've tried using this in an argument and gotten a response along the lines of "I don't mind if people watch me poop."
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    Well I'd say they're full of shit, haha. Most people have something they care about; them refuting a specific case doesn't refute the general concept. They're either arguing in bad faith or are not very good at thinking logically. If they truly have no ethical or moral boundaries, then they are probably deviant enough that they won't be able to get into a position to set much policy, anyways, by definition of their lack of fitness to represent the majority of any population.
    - boneitis 3y ago
      Right. I don't "mind" being seen pooping, per se. You go ahead and zen out and, in turn, take those things with grace by going along with it when someone raises a fuss ("oh, I am soooo humiliated! :)"). Or if you're of another archetype, you'll find witty ways to playfully snap back and turn it around on people trying to clown on you (alas, I'm not of this type/talent). Moreover, there are the countless, other not-uncommon approaches that often lead to escalation/hostility/violence. Then it becomes a drag (and where the issue lies) when it really catches on in wildfire manner, to where it will have practically problematic effects on you personally or professionally, not unlike the lie that makes it halfway 'round the world before the truth can put its pants on. As far as I see it, all of that is what is trying to be highlighted with the pooping witness analogy. Of course, that should probably be underscored when presenting it. You'll probably still get a "yeah, that's fine" or "I don't care what anyone else thinks" after you elaborate. And tons of other cans of worms can reasonably be opened as topical offshoots; I'm just trying to concur that the "I don't mind" response doesn't really feel like a response.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    Assuming they're adults, offer to set up a camera feed in their bathroom and stream it. They don't mind, and you'd do the work, so it'd be no problem for them and a very specific type of audience would love it. They could likely even earn a bit of money doing it so it's win/win! Maybe some people even think they believe it when they say it, but I've yet to see anyone who is willing to demonstrate it when pressed, and I've even met a few people who have claimed that they have no concerns at all about their privacy, but who then ended up feeling violated when even small things they assumed were private ended up being exposed.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    At that point you can either call them a pervert and weirdo, or you can ask to film then while they poop and upload it to YouTube with their name attached.
trinsic2 3y ago
I like this. I added my own parts to clarify and solidify my stance. "Unless I have created a harm, I have a right to choose what to share and who to share it with. I have no interest in the "suspected guilty until proven innocent" mantra.""

sroussey 3y ago

If you have nothing to hide, then publish it all for the world to see.

louloulou 3y ago

"Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age. Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world." -- excerpt from A Cypherpunk's Manifesto, Eric Hughes, March 9, 1993

imoverclocked 3y ago
> March 9, 1993 It's funny (not haha-funny) how political policy in 2023 is still trying to catch up to morality understood 30 years ago. I remember being annoyed at newscasters abusing the term "hackers" in the late 90s and extremely broad definitions of "hacking" being applied in court-rulings. It must still be really difficult to comprehend tech and the consequences of these kinds of policies for policy makers. Either that or policy makers really are maleficent towards life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
- DocTomoe 3y ago
  Oh, politics understands that alright, don't you worry about that. Politicians are the enemies of privacy for the masses, because a transparent population is a population that is easier controlled and manipulated. That's also why terms are being used deliberately incorrectly, to move legitimate positions nearer to criminal activity. Just ask anyone interested in hobbyist chemistry.
  - whydoyoucare 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - andrekandre 3y ago
      > That way build sympathy for the law-breakers how do you build sympathy for law-breakers...? i'm having a hard time understating...

teaearlgraycold 3y ago

There’s a reason we don’t mandate government cameras inside our homes. No one wants that. But in a world where everyone needs a computer, we shouldn’t take advantage of that obligation by turning our computers into surveillance devices.

hanniabu 3y ago

Reminder that the same applies to use of crypto. Just because it's use for some illegal activity (it's actually less % than fiat), doesn't mean it should be made illegal as I've seen some comments here advocating for in the past.

govolckurself 3y ago
If you mean cryptocurrency, then that's wrong, because its primary purpose is to facilitate illegal activity, or grifting. It isn't even good as money, and I still can't buy groceries with Bitcoin, which is like... one of the things money needs to do (buy food).
- hanniabu 3y ago
  You're taking the term cryptocurrency too literally

BLKNSLVR 3y ago

Privacy is wearing clothes. You should almost never be forced to nude up.