7 ms·

This is like saying, "I've developed a new compass for a deep space probe to help it find North!" Our society is actively declaring that falsehoods are truth,

This is like saying, "I've developed a new compass for a deep space probe to help it find North!" Our society is actively declaring that falsehoods are truth, and should be celebrated. We're hallucinating ourselves. All this software does is make sure LLMs hallucinate with us.

Ialdaboth 3y ago
I'm pretty interested and fascinated in all the efforts that go into making sure it lies as convincingly as us.
- bjt2n3904 3y ago
  I firmly reject that GPT is sentient, or can even tell truth. You're no better off asking it questions about society than asking a magic eight ball. And yet there's something sinister about twisting an evolutionary model into a reeducation camp. LLMs are not human, but strikingly similar. If we have no qualms about how we treat it, then what will we do to real people?
plagiarist 3y ago
Such as?
- FeepingCreature 3y ago
  It's impossible to answer this without getting political. Instead, let's just say every previous generation has been critically wrong about some things. Statistically, we're unlikely to be the outlier.
  - bjt2n3904 3y ago
    dang's put me on notice, so I'm walking on eggshells here. But truth isn't political. As long as we think it is, we will continue to follow the descent into madness. Truth is just that: truth. The only reason we think truth is political, is because our chosen leaders so heavily depend on lies that the truth would destroy their reign.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
      I’m a little confused on the statement “truth isn’t political”. This kind of goes against what I understand politics to be, which is the negotiation of a broader societal trend, which doesn’t itself have to do with whether or not the societal trend has a factual basis. The truth may be that cigarettes cause cancer, but the politics are obviously that acknowledging this would encourage society to implement top down policies to limit cigarette use. In this way, “cigarettes is a carcinogen” is a truth with significant political weight, which is what I understand a political truth to mean. Is my understanding different from yours?
      - muxl 3y ago
        If I'm understanding the parent comment correctly: a fact may have political implications but it doesn't depend on politics. In other words reality is independent of our interpretation of it (i.e. philosophical realism). The rub of course being that coming to know facts about most things is a highly social process filtered through interpretation and biases. Everything can be political if it needs to be decided upon by a group. EDIT: I have avoided using "truth" here because it's a more general term than "fact" which has the connotation of being in reference to something concrete.
    - burnished 3y ago
      Eeehhh? Im not sure truth* exists, but there are things that we accept as true and things that are so fundamental that it doesn't occur to us to question them - these things are inherently political. Just to be clear - not using that word to refer to the specific species of polarized discourse that we got in the states, talking about the nature of power and the human condition. Curious what you consider to be true though? I'm coming at it from the perspective that even in physics where we can isolate so nicely we still aren't divining any truths, just making models with increasing explanatory powers. Personally, I've been reaching more towards 'shared values' than 'truth', this is likely the pedant in me but truth doesn't feel tractable whereas shared values feels like it has less baggage? *pretty sure lies exist though
      - 3y ago
  - tester457 3y ago
    We have always been trying to sort pepples into "correct" heaps.[0] [0] https://youtu.be/cLXQnnVWJGo https://youtu.be/cLXQnnVWJGo
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  Such as religion, for example.
- TWAW_and_TMAM 3y ago
  [flagged]
- autophagian 3y ago
  I think its easy to guess what the commenter is obliquely referring to.
- fdschonborn 3y ago
  People who write with their left hand existing.
- becquerel 3y ago
  Generally when people talk like this nowadays they mean trans people, or the LGBT community in general. Sometimes Jews, though those types don't say that part out loud on HN too often.
- aftbit 3y ago
  There were lots of good examples during COVID. Remember that you don't need to wear masks, because washing your hands is enough (and we need to save the masks for doctors, but we're afraid to say that, because it will cause a run on masks). Remember that staying 6 feet apart is a magic distance over which COVID cannot cross (or maybe 1 meter, truth depends on the country you live in). Remember that you can't eat inside a restaurant, but you can eat outside, and it's okay for the restaurant to build partial walls around their outdoor spaces to make them more comfortable. Remember that COVID definitely could not have come from a lab leak, and it's racist to even suggest it might have happened. Never mind that the scientist who started the anti-lab-leak open letter was himself heavily funded for GoF research, and he refused to sign his own letter for political reasons. I don't claim to know the answers to all of the questions (and I certainly don't know where COVID came from), but clearly there are plenty of cases where dubious statements were strongly enshrined as "True" in a way that required major online players to suppress alternative beliefs as "False".
  - bbwbsb 3y ago
    A big difficulty is the conflation of fact with judgement. 'Vaccines work', 'masks don't work', 'a lab leak is impossible', etc. are judgements, not facts. They are not even hypotheses, in that there is no clear criteria by which they can be falsified. Hence fact-checking presents obvious problems, as in practice it will be judgement-checking.
bluescrn 3y ago
Before long, we could end up with left-leaning and right-leaning AIs autonomously fighting the 'culture war' over social media, much more advanced than simple bots spamming copy+paste comments. Combined with ever-improving ways to fake video and voices, things could get even uglier than they've been over the last few years.
- bjt2n3904 3y ago
  Alternatively, we're reaching the point where we're creating a secondary AI to keep the first AI in check, like Wheatley and Glados.
mountainb 3y ago
Well I think that its hallucinations are a good demonstration that none of the post-truth subjectivist philosophies were ever things that many people took very seriously. ChatGPT is the real thing as it relates to extreme relativism: it really cannot tell the difference between true and false and doesn't really care, either. By contrast, the apostles of post-truth were really only trolling for a response... no one really lives by its principles because it's so impractical and disastrous. To really believe in post-truth, you must perceive no difference between raisin bran with cyanide and raisin bran.

Ialdaboth 3y ago

I'm pretty interested and fascinated in all the efforts that go into making sure it lies as convincingly as us.

bjt2n3904 3y ago
I firmly reject that GPT is sentient, or can even tell truth. You're no better off asking it questions about society than asking a magic eight ball. And yet there's something sinister about twisting an evolutionary model into a reeducation camp. LLMs are not human, but strikingly similar. If we have no qualms about how we treat it, then what will we do to real people?

plagiarist 3y ago

Such as?

FeepingCreature 3y ago
It's impossible to answer this without getting political. Instead, let's just say every previous generation has been critically wrong about some things. Statistically, we're unlikely to be the outlier.
- bjt2n3904 3y ago
  dang's put me on notice, so I'm walking on eggshells here. But truth isn't political. As long as we think it is, we will continue to follow the descent into madness. Truth is just that: truth. The only reason we think truth is political, is because our chosen leaders so heavily depend on lies that the truth would destroy their reign.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    I’m a little confused on the statement “truth isn’t political”. This kind of goes against what I understand politics to be, which is the negotiation of a broader societal trend, which doesn’t itself have to do with whether or not the societal trend has a factual basis. The truth may be that cigarettes cause cancer, but the politics are obviously that acknowledging this would encourage society to implement top down policies to limit cigarette use. In this way, “cigarettes is a carcinogen” is a truth with significant political weight, which is what I understand a political truth to mean. Is my understanding different from yours?
    - muxl 3y ago
      If I'm understanding the parent comment correctly: a fact may have political implications but it doesn't depend on politics. In other words reality is independent of our interpretation of it (i.e. philosophical realism). The rub of course being that coming to know facts about most things is a highly social process filtered through interpretation and biases. Everything can be political if it needs to be decided upon by a group. EDIT: I have avoided using "truth" here because it's a more general term than "fact" which has the connotation of being in reference to something concrete.
  - burnished 3y ago
    Eeehhh? Im not sure truth* exists, but there are things that we accept as true and things that are so fundamental that it doesn't occur to us to question them - these things are inherently political. Just to be clear - not using that word to refer to the specific species of polarized discourse that we got in the states, talking about the nature of power and the human condition. Curious what you consider to be true though? I'm coming at it from the perspective that even in physics where we can isolate so nicely we still aren't divining any truths, just making models with increasing explanatory powers. Personally, I've been reaching more towards 'shared values' than 'truth', this is likely the pedant in me but truth doesn't feel tractable whereas shared values feels like it has less baggage? *pretty sure lies exist though
    - 3y ago
- tester457 3y ago
  We have always been trying to sort pepples into "correct" heaps.[0] [0] https://youtu.be/cLXQnnVWJGo https://youtu.be/cLXQnnVWJGo
foobarbecue 3y ago
Such as religion, for example.
TWAW_and_TMAM 3y ago
[flagged]
autophagian 3y ago
I think its easy to guess what the commenter is obliquely referring to.
fdschonborn 3y ago
People who write with their left hand existing.
becquerel 3y ago
Generally when people talk like this nowadays they mean trans people, or the LGBT community in general. Sometimes Jews, though those types don't say that part out loud on HN too often.
aftbit 3y ago
There were lots of good examples during COVID. Remember that you don't need to wear masks, because washing your hands is enough (and we need to save the masks for doctors, but we're afraid to say that, because it will cause a run on masks). Remember that staying 6 feet apart is a magic distance over which COVID cannot cross (or maybe 1 meter, truth depends on the country you live in). Remember that you can't eat inside a restaurant, but you can eat outside, and it's okay for the restaurant to build partial walls around their outdoor spaces to make them more comfortable. Remember that COVID definitely could not have come from a lab leak, and it's racist to even suggest it might have happened. Never mind that the scientist who started the anti-lab-leak open letter was himself heavily funded for GoF research, and he refused to sign his own letter for political reasons. I don't claim to know the answers to all of the questions (and I certainly don't know where COVID came from), but clearly there are plenty of cases where dubious statements were strongly enshrined as "True" in a way that required major online players to suppress alternative beliefs as "False".
- bbwbsb 3y ago
  A big difficulty is the conflation of fact with judgement. 'Vaccines work', 'masks don't work', 'a lab leak is impossible', etc. are judgements, not facts. They are not even hypotheses, in that there is no clear criteria by which they can be falsified. Hence fact-checking presents obvious problems, as in practice it will be judgement-checking.

bluescrn 3y ago

Before long, we could end up with left-leaning and right-leaning AIs autonomously fighting the 'culture war' over social media, much more advanced than simple bots spamming copy+paste comments. Combined with ever-improving ways to fake video and voices, things could get even uglier than they've been over the last few years.

bjt2n3904 3y ago
Alternatively, we're reaching the point where we're creating a secondary AI to keep the first AI in check, like Wheatley and Glados.

mountainb 3y ago

Well I think that its hallucinations are a good demonstration that none of the post-truth subjectivist philosophies were ever things that many people took very seriously. ChatGPT is the real thing as it relates to extreme relativism: it really cannot tell the difference between true and false and doesn't really care, either. By contrast, the apostles of post-truth were really only trolling for a response... no one really lives by its principles because it's so impractical and disastrous. To really believe in post-truth, you must perceive no difference between raisin bran with cyanide and raisin bran.