7 ms·

The reaction became a chain reaction and now the details don't matter and the "dogma" could be anything. For example, singing the sone "Rainbowland" at an elem

The reaction became a chain reaction and now the details don't matter and the "dogma" could be anything. For example, singing the sone "Rainbowland" at an elementary school concert is now considered pushing some dogma of shaming on kids.

rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- plorg 3y ago
  What about drag shows is inappropriate, for what ages, and what intervention would you consider reasonable to prevent the harm of children? Plenty of drag shows are designed to be family-friendly, and generally parents can just not bring their kids to things that they don't think are appropriate for them. In any case, the way you write about self expression (and the Matt Walsh-level unseriousness of describing drag shows as a mockery to trans women) suggest you're not really looking to find a common ground that would allow non-conformity in public.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - msla 3y ago
      > Drag shows involve violating social norms as a form of voluntary self expression. Such rejection of social norms should not be granted state sanction by hosting such events in public libraries. Mere assertion. Not an argument. The supposed arguments against drag queen story time are either unserious hand-wringing about supposed harms coming from drag, a form of art older than modern gender roles, or simple threats of violence. Neither are actual arguments, just argument-shaped word noises. > By contrast, trans people presenting consistent with their biological gender identity isn't a form of voluntary self expression, any more than it is for a cis person to do so. "Biological gender identity" is ill-defined here, to the extent I honestly don't know what you mean: Do you mean a trans woman, such as Blaire White, dressing and acting like a woman? The phrase "biological gender identity" seems to conflate the modern conception of sex (genitals, chromosomes to some extent, hormones) with the modern conception of gender (roles, presentation, identity) and I'm now confused.
      - freejazz 3y ago
        rayiner is clearly just expressing their own personal distaste for non-passing trans individuals. Is Rayiner checking the genitals of everyone that interacts with children, or is Rayiner just implicitly assuming their sex based upon their gender expression??
        rayiner 3y ago
        Are you seriously comparing non-passing trans people to drag performers?
        freejazz 3y ago
        I'm not, are you??
        selimthegrim 3y ago
        You do realize in the subcontinent that transpeople interact with kids all the time in the street? I remember meeting them in my family’s neighborhood in Karachi when I was 7 or 8. You might want to ask your dad about this if you don’t believe me.
        random314 3y ago
        [dead]
        rayiner 3y ago
        And you do realize that Hijra are trans people, who suffer exile and segregation into separate communities? They’re not cisgender men dressing like women to make a statement, like most drag performers.
      - fknorangesite 3y ago
        > and I'm now confused. So is rayiner, I think.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        The premise for broad acceptance of trans rights, just as it is for gay rights, is the scientific fact that prenatal endocrine exposure controls sexual orientation and people’s feelings about what gender they are: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780128159682000098 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B97801.... It’s not at all “ill-defined” it’s the scientific premise behind saying that someone is born transgender as opposed to choosing to be transgender. Accepting the right of people to present themselves consistent with their gender identity has nothing to do with sanctioning breaking gender norms for “art” or other purposes, which is the focus of drag.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      > Drag shows involve violating social norms as a form of voluntary self expression This argument is brought to you by the same crowd of incels and other neo-reactionaries who lament the public reaction to their continued efforts to be shockingly edgy > Such rejection of social norms should not be granted state sanction by hosting such events in public libraries. Why? What social norms should the state care about? All social norms? What about the social norms of say, redlining communities? Should the state sanction that social norm, because it's a social norm?
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > This argument is brought to you by the same crowd of incels and other neo-reactionaries who lament the public reaction to their continued efforts to be shockingly edgy No, sorry, standard brown immigrant socialization—which is why both DeSantis and Youngkin won on this issue. Look, my family voted for Biden but we would lose our shit if any of our kids got a tattoo. You do not want to fight us in that turf. > Why? What social norms should the state care about? If we are talking about what state sanction directed to children, then it should be the social norms parents want to impart to their kids. There id a majority coalition for those norms to include accepting people who are born different. There is not a majority coalition in support of voluntary gender norm breaking in the name of self expression.
        freejazz 3y ago
        >There is not a majority coalition in support of voluntary gender norm breaking in the name of self expression. As opposed to in the name of what else? your posts are so weird - no one is trying to fight you, so maybe tone it down. Like, you post at me like I'm going into your community and making you do things with your children, it's a bit ridiculous. We are just chatting on a website. >No, sorry, standard brown immigrant socialization—which is why both DeSantis and Youngkin won on this issue. What?
        rayiner 3y ago
        > As opposed to in the name of what else? To conform their outward presentation to the gender they identify with, which is a fact rooted in biology. >No, sorry, standard brown immigrant socialization—which is why both DeSantis and Youngkin won on this issue. > What? The vast majority of the world does not embrace white American notions of individualistic self expression. We think norm enforcement and conformity are good things that help kids stay on track. Both Youngkin in VA and DeSantis in FL won majorities among Hispanics (a group that usually favors democrats) by focusing on that disconnect between liberal teachers and more conservative families. https://interactives.ap.org/votecast-2021-va https://interactives.ap.org/votecast-2021-va; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/florida-latinos-turned-favor-republicans-rcna57167 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/florida-latinos-turned-f...
    - plorg 3y ago
      So the violation of social norms is harmful to children? Is that your argument? Or is it "voluntary self-expression" that children should be protected from?
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    And parents should be able to choose to take their kids to a private family friendly drag show if they choose. But there is a big difference between that and putting one on at a public school or library.
- freejazz 3y ago
  Conservatives are all for letting parents take their kids to churches where people play with snakes and speak in tongues, and you are actually pearl clutching over a man wearing a dress?
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    And most liberals would be just as upset if a public school or library hosted one of those events.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      A library less so, imo. Local libraries are community institutions and should be serving their communities. so if the community wants to have a drag night, I don't see the issue? no one is forced to go... I went to boy scouts at my library
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Fuck no. Schools have had literal bible studies hosted by a teacher or student for decades!
  - CWuestefeld 3y ago
    Your whole chain of responses here running a motte and bailey on both sides. On the one hand, you're pretending that the most silly extremists on the right are central examples; while on the other hand, pretending that there exist no extremists on the left.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      Responding to an actual poster here isn't that. Also, who are the alleged extremists on the left? You are just revealing your personal disagreement with my positions.
      - CWuestefeld 3y ago
        My mistake. None of the positions held by anyone on the left is extreme in the least.
- digging 3y ago
  > But drag shows aren't appropriate for children, right? I mean, this is either an ill-informed or wildly hateful view. Many drag shows are appropriate for children. Many drag shows are not appropriate for children. We didn't criminalize TV writers when South Park contained adult humor. In fact, we started showing it all day long.

rayiner 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
plorg 3y ago
What about drag shows is inappropriate, for what ages, and what intervention would you consider reasonable to prevent the harm of children? Plenty of drag shows are designed to be family-friendly, and generally parents can just not bring their kids to things that they don't think are appropriate for them. In any case, the way you write about self expression (and the Matt Walsh-level unseriousness of describing drag shows as a mockery to trans women) suggest you're not really looking to find a common ground that would allow non-conformity in public.
- rayiner 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - msla 3y ago
    > Drag shows involve violating social norms as a form of voluntary self expression. Such rejection of social norms should not be granted state sanction by hosting such events in public libraries. Mere assertion. Not an argument. The supposed arguments against drag queen story time are either unserious hand-wringing about supposed harms coming from drag, a form of art older than modern gender roles, or simple threats of violence. Neither are actual arguments, just argument-shaped word noises. > By contrast, trans people presenting consistent with their biological gender identity isn't a form of voluntary self expression, any more than it is for a cis person to do so. "Biological gender identity" is ill-defined here, to the extent I honestly don't know what you mean: Do you mean a trans woman, such as Blaire White, dressing and acting like a woman? The phrase "biological gender identity" seems to conflate the modern conception of sex (genitals, chromosomes to some extent, hormones) with the modern conception of gender (roles, presentation, identity) and I'm now confused.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      rayiner is clearly just expressing their own personal distaste for non-passing trans individuals. Is Rayiner checking the genitals of everyone that interacts with children, or is Rayiner just implicitly assuming their sex based upon their gender expression??
      - rayiner 3y ago
        Are you seriously comparing non-passing trans people to drag performers?
        freejazz 3y ago
        I'm not, are you??
        selimthegrim 3y ago
        You do realize in the subcontinent that transpeople interact with kids all the time in the street? I remember meeting them in my family’s neighborhood in Karachi when I was 7 or 8. You might want to ask your dad about this if you don’t believe me.
        random314 3y ago
        [dead]
        rayiner 3y ago
        And you do realize that Hijra are trans people, who suffer exile and segregation into separate communities? They’re not cisgender men dressing like women to make a statement, like most drag performers.
    - fknorangesite 3y ago
      > and I'm now confused. So is rayiner, I think.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      The premise for broad acceptance of trans rights, just as it is for gay rights, is the scientific fact that prenatal endocrine exposure controls sexual orientation and people’s feelings about what gender they are: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780128159682000098 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B97801.... It’s not at all “ill-defined” it’s the scientific premise behind saying that someone is born transgender as opposed to choosing to be transgender. Accepting the right of people to present themselves consistent with their gender identity has nothing to do with sanctioning breaking gender norms for “art” or other purposes, which is the focus of drag.
  - freejazz 3y ago
    > Drag shows involve violating social norms as a form of voluntary self expression This argument is brought to you by the same crowd of incels and other neo-reactionaries who lament the public reaction to their continued efforts to be shockingly edgy > Such rejection of social norms should not be granted state sanction by hosting such events in public libraries. Why? What social norms should the state care about? All social norms? What about the social norms of say, redlining communities? Should the state sanction that social norm, because it's a social norm?
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > This argument is brought to you by the same crowd of incels and other neo-reactionaries who lament the public reaction to their continued efforts to be shockingly edgy No, sorry, standard brown immigrant socialization—which is why both DeSantis and Youngkin won on this issue. Look, my family voted for Biden but we would lose our shit if any of our kids got a tattoo. You do not want to fight us in that turf. > Why? What social norms should the state care about? If we are talking about what state sanction directed to children, then it should be the social norms parents want to impart to their kids. There id a majority coalition for those norms to include accepting people who are born different. There is not a majority coalition in support of voluntary gender norm breaking in the name of self expression.
      - freejazz 3y ago
        >There is not a majority coalition in support of voluntary gender norm breaking in the name of self expression. As opposed to in the name of what else? your posts are so weird - no one is trying to fight you, so maybe tone it down. Like, you post at me like I'm going into your community and making you do things with your children, it's a bit ridiculous. We are just chatting on a website. >No, sorry, standard brown immigrant socialization—which is why both DeSantis and Youngkin won on this issue. What?
        rayiner 3y ago
        > As opposed to in the name of what else? To conform their outward presentation to the gender they identify with, which is a fact rooted in biology. >No, sorry, standard brown immigrant socialization—which is why both DeSantis and Youngkin won on this issue. > What? The vast majority of the world does not embrace white American notions of individualistic self expression. We think norm enforcement and conformity are good things that help kids stay on track. Both Youngkin in VA and DeSantis in FL won majorities among Hispanics (a group that usually favors democrats) by focusing on that disconnect between liberal teachers and more conservative families. https://interactives.ap.org/votecast-2021-va https://interactives.ap.org/votecast-2021-va; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/florida-latinos-turned-favor-republicans-rcna57167 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/florida-latinos-turned-f...
  - plorg 3y ago
    So the violation of social norms is harmful to children? Is that your argument? Or is it "voluntary self-expression" that children should be protected from?
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  And parents should be able to choose to take their kids to a private family friendly drag show if they choose. But there is a big difference between that and putting one on at a public school or library.
freejazz 3y ago
Conservatives are all for letting parents take their kids to churches where people play with snakes and speak in tongues, and you are actually pearl clutching over a man wearing a dress?
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  And most liberals would be just as upset if a public school or library hosted one of those events.
  - freejazz 3y ago
    A library less so, imo. Local libraries are community institutions and should be serving their communities. so if the community wants to have a drag night, I don't see the issue? no one is forced to go... I went to boy scouts at my library
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Fuck no. Schools have had literal bible studies hosted by a teacher or student for decades!
- CWuestefeld 3y ago
  Your whole chain of responses here running a motte and bailey on both sides. On the one hand, you're pretending that the most silly extremists on the right are central examples; while on the other hand, pretending that there exist no extremists on the left.
  - freejazz 3y ago
    Responding to an actual poster here isn't that. Also, who are the alleged extremists on the left? You are just revealing your personal disagreement with my positions.
    - CWuestefeld 3y ago
      My mistake. None of the positions held by anyone on the left is extreme in the least.
digging 3y ago
> But drag shows aren't appropriate for children, right? I mean, this is either an ill-informed or wildly hateful view. Many drag shows are appropriate for children. Many drag shows are not appropriate for children. We didn't criminalize TV writers when South Park contained adult humor. In fact, we started showing it all day long.