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This is just a repeat of the recycling scam [1]. It's almost abusive - making people feel responsible for a problem almost entirely out of their control. [1] h

This is just a repeat of the recycling scam [1]. It's almost abusive - making people feel responsible for a problem almost entirely out of their control. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/the-passionate-eye/recycling-was-a-lie-a-big-lie-to-sell-more-plastic-industry-experts-say-1.5735618 https://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/the-passionate-eye/recyclin...

graddrisrp 3y ago
If we want to go forward we absolutely need to shut these fools down, the only solution proposed to the problem is, you need to be poor. I don't understand how people get on-board with it. From the outside it really looks like a cult to be honest. Weirdest thing in my opinions is how much of educated people also fall in the scam as well
- Tade0 3y ago
  Some stuff is truly limited. The other day I learned that China is a net importer of agricultural products and this has been the case for almost 20 years now. It appears that their one child policy - something that would not fly in the west - prevented a major crisis here.
  - lynx23 3y ago
    After corona was pushed through, and given that the child-per-woman count is already approaching 1 in many western countries, I believe you are wrong. A one child policy could easily be pushed only with the right narrative and public opinion. Just declare big families as a climate disaster (they are) and let everyone know how irresponsible women with more then one child are. Bingo. People have been trained to look down on each other just recently, so use the drive and... outlaw children!
    - account42 3y ago
      You forgot the next step: Encourage mass immigration to fill all the holes your one child policy left.
      - thriftwy 3y ago
        That alone sounds like an enormous self-defeating ecological disaster, since anybody immigrating from India to USA or from Morocco to France quickly adopts the new, much higher, level of consumption and carbon emission. Nontheless, it is done on a grand scale with very few reservations.
        Tade0 3y ago
        The Swiss ~voted~ proposed a vote on limiting the population number citing carbon emissions. Truth be told the largest groups of immigrants there are Portuguese, Germans and Italians, so if anything it's the other way around considering what kind of energy mix Switzerland has. That being said I think countries should deal with their population issues on their own instead of relying this heavily on imported workforce. France was largely successful at keeping their fertility rate only slightly under replacement, so it is possible. Edit: Can't confirm if the referendum was ultimately scheduled.
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      “after corona was pushed through”?
      - lynx23 3y ago
        "After corona was used as a testbed", better? I realize covid-mandates were perceived differently from country to country. Where I live, we first had a push for a general vaccination mandate, which was later more or less silently abolished because it turned out the promised efficientcy of the vaccines turned out to be not that high, and politicians silent, without explaining why, let the mandate plans slip back into their hiding place. As a result, we have pretty much destroyed any remaining trust in politics and so-called "experts" in the general population.
- eastbound 3y ago
  Being poor is not enough. Your government, our government contracts debt to spend on your behalf, about 3x what you earn, and they build airports, wars, industries, city towers, running KPMG audits (probably the most CO2-intensive among all that) with your money. You can be farming carrots and live like a hermit and still be funding the CO2 industry.
Stratoscope 3y ago
Here's a more detailed and brutal article on fake plastic recycling: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2022-india-plastic-recycling-pollution/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2022-india-plastic-recycl... It doesn't seem to be paywalled, but just in case: https://archive.is/O1iGo https://archive.is/O1iGo
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  That seemed more positive than I expected - i thought it would be something more like this story about recycling being merged straight back to trash flows https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/marketplace-recycling-trackers-b-c-blue-box-1.5299176 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/marketplace-recycling-tracke...
  - BigCryo 3y ago
    John stossel of ABC claims that 95% of all recyclables go right into the landfill with all the rest of the trash
graddrisrp 3y ago
I think we need to start acting against it as much as we can especially us in tech we bear a big responsibility for borowing our craftsmanship to anti human ideals and cult like herd mentality, this is a very grave issue in my opinion
aziaziazi 3y ago
I would argue this is different in the sense you’ll hardly find alternative for most of the plastic you use, while some can surely drastically reduce their footprint by eating beans instead of steaks, using smaller cars (when car is absolutely required), buying smaller house to heat… Does europeans drivers are more sad than the American ones ? Does vegan enjoy less their meal ? Does Japanese feels poor to live in a 30m2 appartement ? Hiding behind culture, habits and society is not enough to dumb their responsibility, especially for rich and smart people. Don’t forget 30 days is often what it gets to form a new habit like dropping beef off your meal.
- lynx23 3y ago
  I own no car, never have. In exchange for becoming a vegetarian, am I allowed to continue to eat meat in your world? Or do I have to change my lifestyle because a group of bigots is pointing fingers?
  - beepbooptheory 3y ago
    You are allowed to do whatever you want. It does nothing for this conversation to frame it like your a haughty teenager. That's your own baggage!
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  I'm European, have been to the US, and yeah, it's more fun to drive there. I've been vegan for years and yeah, it was less enjoyable and empirically less healthy for me than the more normal diet I have now. I have lived in a small flat, and now I own a house, and yeah, the house is better. I can't imagine ever moving back into a flat unless I become impoverished. The entire movement you propose is simply "be poorer".
  - aziaziazi 3y ago
    You share your experience as an (probably rich minority) individual. What about the society you lived in ? How about the society your kids will live in 40 years ? The movement I describe is “sobriety”. It’s similar to being poor of something (big car) but you’re not lacking it, instead you choose to do without. This difference is a big deal in a psychology point of view and that’s probably why you feel “less fun”. Totally agree with your point of healthiness of vegan diet, the case was more on quantity than beef/no beef.
mattigames 3y ago
Well said. Saying "everyone will be carbon literate in 30 years" is as accurate as it would have been predicting back in the the 60s that people now would be "asbestos literate". And just like the asbestos problem was fixed by making it illegal the same thing happens with carbon, of course not 100% of it (unlike asbestos) because that's impossible but close enough, for example it's ridiculous single use plastics are still legal in so many places, it's ridiculous high speed trains are not ubiquious by now, is ridiculous there are so many places where going by car is faster than public transportion, as well as many other laws and infrastructure that are long overdue, nothing to do with making everybodys job to bean-count "their" emissions.
BigCryo 3y ago
The Establishment knows very well that their target audience, a certain segment of society, is very easy to manipulate through guilt propaganda

graddrisrp 3y ago

If we want to go forward we absolutely need to shut these fools down, the only solution proposed to the problem is, you need to be poor. I don't understand how people get on-board with it. From the outside it really looks like a cult to be honest. Weirdest thing in my opinions is how much of educated people also fall in the scam as well

Tade0 3y ago
Some stuff is truly limited. The other day I learned that China is a net importer of agricultural products and this has been the case for almost 20 years now. It appears that their one child policy - something that would not fly in the west - prevented a major crisis here.
- lynx23 3y ago
  After corona was pushed through, and given that the child-per-woman count is already approaching 1 in many western countries, I believe you are wrong. A one child policy could easily be pushed only with the right narrative and public opinion. Just declare big families as a climate disaster (they are) and let everyone know how irresponsible women with more then one child are. Bingo. People have been trained to look down on each other just recently, so use the drive and... outlaw children!
  - account42 3y ago
    You forgot the next step: Encourage mass immigration to fill all the holes your one child policy left.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      That alone sounds like an enormous self-defeating ecological disaster, since anybody immigrating from India to USA or from Morocco to France quickly adopts the new, much higher, level of consumption and carbon emission. Nontheless, it is done on a grand scale with very few reservations.
      - Tade0 3y ago
        The Swiss ~voted~ proposed a vote on limiting the population number citing carbon emissions. Truth be told the largest groups of immigrants there are Portuguese, Germans and Italians, so if anything it's the other way around considering what kind of energy mix Switzerland has. That being said I think countries should deal with their population issues on their own instead of relying this heavily on imported workforce. France was largely successful at keeping their fertility rate only slightly under replacement, so it is possible. Edit: Can't confirm if the referendum was ultimately scheduled.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    “after corona was pushed through”?
    - lynx23 3y ago
      "After corona was used as a testbed", better? I realize covid-mandates were perceived differently from country to country. Where I live, we first had a push for a general vaccination mandate, which was later more or less silently abolished because it turned out the promised efficientcy of the vaccines turned out to be not that high, and politicians silent, without explaining why, let the mandate plans slip back into their hiding place. As a result, we have pretty much destroyed any remaining trust in politics and so-called "experts" in the general population.
eastbound 3y ago
Being poor is not enough. Your government, our government contracts debt to spend on your behalf, about 3x what you earn, and they build airports, wars, industries, city towers, running KPMG audits (probably the most CO2-intensive among all that) with your money. You can be farming carrots and live like a hermit and still be funding the CO2 industry.

Stratoscope 3y ago

Here's a more detailed and brutal article on fake plastic recycling: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2022-india-plastic-recycling-pollution/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2022-india-plastic-recycl... It doesn't seem to be paywalled, but just in case: https://archive.is/O1iGo https://archive.is/O1iGo

lazyasciiart 3y ago
That seemed more positive than I expected - i thought it would be something more like this story about recycling being merged straight back to trash flows https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/marketplace-recycling-trackers-b-c-blue-box-1.5299176 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/marketplace-recycling-tracke...
- BigCryo 3y ago
  John stossel of ABC claims that 95% of all recyclables go right into the landfill with all the rest of the trash

graddrisrp 3y ago

I think we need to start acting against it as much as we can especially us in tech we bear a big responsibility for borowing our craftsmanship to anti human ideals and cult like herd mentality, this is a very grave issue in my opinion

aziaziazi 3y ago

I would argue this is different in the sense you’ll hardly find alternative for most of the plastic you use, while some can surely drastically reduce their footprint by eating beans instead of steaks, using smaller cars (when car is absolutely required), buying smaller house to heat… Does europeans drivers are more sad than the American ones ? Does vegan enjoy less their meal ? Does Japanese feels poor to live in a 30m2 appartement ? Hiding behind culture, habits and society is not enough to dumb their responsibility, especially for rich and smart people. Don’t forget 30 days is often what it gets to form a new habit like dropping beef off your meal.

lynx23 3y ago
I own no car, never have. In exchange for becoming a vegetarian, am I allowed to continue to eat meat in your world? Or do I have to change my lifestyle because a group of bigots is pointing fingers?
- beepbooptheory 3y ago
  You are allowed to do whatever you want. It does nothing for this conversation to frame it like your a haughty teenager. That's your own baggage!
throwaway22032 3y ago
I'm European, have been to the US, and yeah, it's more fun to drive there. I've been vegan for years and yeah, it was less enjoyable and empirically less healthy for me than the more normal diet I have now. I have lived in a small flat, and now I own a house, and yeah, the house is better. I can't imagine ever moving back into a flat unless I become impoverished. The entire movement you propose is simply "be poorer".
- aziaziazi 3y ago
  You share your experience as an (probably rich minority) individual. What about the society you lived in ? How about the society your kids will live in 40 years ? The movement I describe is “sobriety”. It’s similar to being poor of something (big car) but you’re not lacking it, instead you choose to do without. This difference is a big deal in a psychology point of view and that’s probably why you feel “less fun”. Totally agree with your point of healthiness of vegan diet, the case was more on quantity than beef/no beef.

mattigames 3y ago

Well said. Saying "everyone will be carbon literate in 30 years" is as accurate as it would have been predicting back in the the 60s that people now would be "asbestos literate". And just like the asbestos problem was fixed by making it illegal the same thing happens with carbon, of course not 100% of it (unlike asbestos) because that's impossible but close enough, for example it's ridiculous single use plastics are still legal in so many places, it's ridiculous high speed trains are not ubiquious by now, is ridiculous there are so many places where going by car is faster than public transportion, as well as many other laws and infrastructure that are long overdue, nothing to do with making everybodys job to bean-count "their" emissions.

BigCryo 3y ago

The Establishment knows very well that their target audience, a certain segment of society, is very easy to manipulate through guilt propaganda